WJks  with  Mr  Gladstone 


Bm  Liones  4.  '(olfemache 


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TALKS   WITH    MR.  GLADSTONE 


Talks  with  Mr.  Gladstone 


BY    THE 

Hon.  LIONEL  A.  TOLLEMACHE 

AUTHOR  ^F 
"BENJAMIN   JOWETT,"  "SAFE   STUDIES,"  ETC. 


Defuncttis  adhuc  loquitur 


NEW  YORK 
LONGMANS,   GREEN,   AND   CO. 

LONDON  AND  BOMBAY 
1898 

I 


Copyright,  1898 
By  Longmans,  Green,  and  Co. 


All  rights  reserved 


Press  of  J.  J.  Little  &  Co. 
Astor  Place,  New  York 


PREFACE 

IT  will  be  seen  that  these  Reminiscences, 
in  all  their  essential  parts,  were  written 
long  ago.  I  was  at  first  undecided  as  to  the 
fittest  time  for  giving  them  to  the  world. 
But,  on  the  whole,  no  time  has  seemed  fitter 
than  shortly  after  the  long-foreseen,  long- 
dreaded  event  for  which  we  are  now  sorrow- 
ing— the  not  unmixedly  sad  event,  never- 
theless, which  brings  a  career  of  such  life- 
long devotion  vividly  before  us,  and  which 
enables,  nay,  constrains  us  to  reflect  that 
the  patriotic  hero  of  so  many  struggles  and, 
alas,  the  patient  victim  of  so  much  suffering 
is  resting  from  his  labours,  and  that  his 
works  shall  follow  him. 


CONTENTS 

PAGE 

Introduction i 

Talks  in  1856-1870         .        .        .        .15 
Talks  in  1891-1896         .        .        .        .     41 


Talks  With  Mr.   Gladstone 


INTRODUCTION 

Quid  volui,  demens,  humeris  imponere  tantum 
Ponderis  ? 

I  SAW  something  of  Mr.  Gladstone  between 
1856  and  1870  in  England;  and,  after  an 
interval  of  twenty  years,  I  saw  much  of  him 
at  Biarritz.  In  reporting  a  few  of  the  things 
that  he  said  to  me  during  the  earlier  period, 
I  have  to  trust  my  memory  entirely.  His 
remarks  during  the  later  period  have  been 
carefully  noted  down.  I  am,  therefore, 
confident  that  those  remarks  are  reported 
with  accuracy.  Naturally,  however,  my 
attention  was  concentrated  on  Mr.  Glad- 
stone's observations;  and  I  must  add  that 
the  effort  of  committing  those  observations 
to  memory,  and  likewise  of  replying  to 
them,  was  such  that  I  cannot  pretend  that 
my  own  part  in  the  conversation  is  given 

i 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

with  equal  exactness.  But  this,  of  course, 
is  a  matter  of  minor  importance.  Another 
of  my  Boswellian  canons  ought,  perhaps,  to 
be  disclosed.  Several  times  my  conversa- 
tions with  Mr.  Gladstone  were  interrupted 
just  when  he  was  entering  on  an  important 
subject;  and  I  naturally  endeavoured,  dur- 
ing one  or  more  subsequent  interviews,  to 
draw  him  out  more  thoroughly.  When  the 
drawing-out  process  had  been  completed 
and  I  had  to  make  a  final  report  of  all  that 
he  had  said,  I  had  to  choose  between  two 
alternatives,  each  of  them  open  to  objection. 
Sometimes  I  thought  it  safer  to  observe 
strict  accuracy  by  referring  the  two  or  more 
mutually  supplementing,  not  to  say  over- 
lapping, conversations  to  the  times  when 
they  respectively  occurred.  But  more  fre- 
quently I  have  consulted  the  convenience 
of  my  readers  by  following  a  logical,  instead 
of  a  chronological  arrangement,  and  by  sol- 
dering together  the  disunited  parts  of  what 
was  practically  a  single  dialogue. 

In  preparing  to  add  to  my  literary  gallery 
its  most  conspicuous  portrait,  I  am  con- 
fronted with  the  question :  In  order  to 
concentrate  attention  on  the  portrait  itself, 
ought  not  its  frame  to  be  as  simple  as  pos- 

2 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

sible?  Or,  to  lay  aside  metaphor,  ought  I 
not  to  restrict  myself  to  the  mechanical 
office  of  Boswellising  Mr.  Gladstone,  and  to 
leave  the  thankless  task  of  criticising  him 
to  such  biographers  as  are  at  once  compelled 
and  competent  to  discharge  it?  The  ques- 
tion, when  thus  put,  seems  to  answer  itself; 
but  the  matter,  in  fact,  is  not  so  simple  as 
at  first  sight  appears.  On  the  whole,  the 
self-denying  ordinance  which  I  am  inclined 
to  impose  on  myself  is  this,  that  I  should 
in  general  not  presume  to  sit  in  judgment 
on  Mr.  Gladstone  except  in  cases  where  my 
intercourse  with  him  serves  to  throw  light 
on  some  misunderstood  parts  of  his  char- 
acter; or  where,  on  the  other  hand,  some 
remarks  on  his  character  are  needed  to  throw 
light  on  my  intercourse  with  him. 

On  neither  of  these  two  accounts  do  I  feel 
called  upon  to  say  much  about  him  as  a 
statesman.  Being  forced  to  spend  three- 
quarters  of  every  year  on  the  Continent  in 
a  sort  of  valetudinarian  exile,  I  have  come 
to  regard  myself,  not  certainly  as  an  outlaw, 
but  as  what  I  may  call  an  outpolitics, — as  one 
who  can  look  on  party  politics  only  from  the 
standpoint  of  a  philosophical  outsider;  so 
that,  for  this  as  well  as  for  other  reasons, 

3 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  abstain  from  acting  the  part  of  a  political 
censor.  And  this  abstinence  is,  in  the  pres- 
ent case,  made  easier  by  the  fact  that  the 
tie  which  bound  him  to  me  and  mine  was 
not  political,  but  personal.  He  was  a  county 
neighbour  of  my  Conservative  father  and  of 
my  more  Conservative  father-in-law  (the  late 
Lord  Egerton  of  Tatton).  When  he  and 
they  were  in  the  House  of  Commons  to- 
gether, he  met  them  on  a  footing  of  friendly 
opposition ;  and  although  the  political  an- 
tagonism went  on  increasing,  the  friendly 
relations  were  perhaps  not  lessened  down  to 
the  end  of  the  chapter.  The  result  of  all 
this  was  that,  when  he  extended  his  friend- 
ship to  my  wife  and  me,  he  showed  a  mani- 
fest disinclination  to  discuss  the  politics  of 
the  day.  He  seldom  approached  burning 
questions  in  my  presence,  and  hardly  ever 
in  the  presence  of  my  wife.  I  could  have 
wished  that  he  had  been  less  scrupulous; 
but  perhaps,  after  all,  the  loss  was  not  very 
serious.  The  political  Gladstone  has  long 
been,  and  will  long  continue  to  be,  in  every- 
body's mouth.  It  is  of  the  non-political 
Gladstone  that  people  in  general  need  to 
learn  something. 

When    I   pass   on  from  the  public  to  the 

4 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

private  character  of  Mr.  Gladstone,  I  am 
only  too  sensible  alike  of  the  difficulty  and 
of  the  necessity  of  touching  on  that  most 
delicate  part  of  my  subject.  To  quote 
Cicero:  "  Quid  dicam  de  moribus  facillimis, 
de  bonitate  in  suos,  justitia  in  omnes?" 
(  What  should  I  say  of  the  easy  urbanity  of 
his  manners,  of  his  goodness  to  his  intimates, 
of  his  justice  towards  all  men  f)  What,  in 
particular,  should  I  say,  or  forbear  to  say, 
about  Mr.  Gladstone's  great  kindness  to 
me?  Compliments,  however  sincere  and 
however  well  deserved,  have  nearly  always 
an  air  of  patronage;  and,  indeed,  I  have 
sometimes  thought  that  the  step  from  the 
sublime  to  the  ridiculous  is  perhaps  less 
short  than  the  step  from  an  ill-turned  or  ill- 
timed  compliment  to  an  insult.  Those  of 
us  who  are  haunted  by  any  such  impression 
as  is  here  indicated  are  naturally  disposed, 
in  relation  to  Mr.  Gladstone's  private  vir- 
tues, to  say  less  than  we  feel,  or  rather  to 
keep  silence  even  from  good  words.  Never- 
theless, it  would  be  churlish  in  us  to  refrain 
altogether  from  bearing  our  eye-witnessing 
testimony  to  his  considerate  and  uncon- 
descending  graciousness  towards  such  of  his 
juniors  as  he  befriended.     And  we  ourselves 

5 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

are  led  to  do  this  all  the  more  in  order,  so 
to  say,  to  take  away  the  unpleasing  taste 
of  the  few  words  of  adverse  criticism  which 
will  perforce  make  their  way  into  the  follow- 
ing pages.  Let  it,  then,  be  understood  once 
for  all  that,  however  we  may  have  differed 
from  his  views  both  on  things  present  and 
on  things  to  come,  we  nevertheless  judge 
him  to  have  exhibited  an  absolutely  unique 
combination  of  political  sagacity  with  an  un- 
wavering conviction  of  the  Divine  presence 
and  support ;  so  that  we  might  almost  liter- 
ally apostrophise  him  in  the  phrase  of  the 
Greek  poet — 

"  avSpdov  6e  rtpcoTov  IV  te  £,vuq>opa.K  fiiov 
xpivovTEi  kv  te  daiuovcov  ^vv aXXay aiS." 

I  have  mentioned  that  Mr.  Gladstone,  in 
his  intercourse  with  me,  seldom  penetrated 
within  the  recesses  of  politics.  He,  how- 
ever, often  led  me  into  what  may  be  called 
the  antechamber  of  politics.  He  freely  im- 
parted to  me  his  reminiscences;  and  those 
reminiscences  were  interspersed  with  sug- 
gestive comments,  and  had  always,  if  I  may 
so  express  it,  a  quorum  pars  magna  fni 
flavour  about  them.  When  he  was  disposed 
to  dwell  on  this  interesting  subject,  I  did  my 

6 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

best  to  make  him  stick  to  it ;  and,  on  other 
occasions,  I  threw  the  subject  in  his  path. 
His  anecdotical  reflections  on  such  men  as 
Canning  and  Peel,  as  Lord  Palmerston  and 
Disraeli,  are  reported  with  the  utmost  pos- 
sible minuteness. 

There  were,  however,  subjects  on  which 
he  conversed  with  less  interest  and  effect, 
and  in  reference  to  which  my  duties  as  a 
reporter  were  less  clear.  Of  those  less  im- 
portant remarks  of  his,  should  any,  or 
should  all,  be  placed  before  my  readers? 
An  example  will  serve  to  show  the  nature 
of  my  perplexity.  How  much  am  I  to 
record  of  my  impressions  of  Mr.  Gladstone's 
views  on  Homer's  ethics  and  theology?  My 
introduction  to  those  views  took  place  in  an 
odd  manner.  In  my  Oxford  days  I  heard  a 
lady  ask  Jowett  what  he  thought  of  Mr. 
Gladstone's  then  recently  published  book 
on  Homer.  "  It's  mere  nonsense,"  was  the 
brief  answer.  Without  passing  so  summary 
a  verdict  on  Mr.  Gladstone's  work,  or  pre- 
suming to  speak  on  the  subject  as  an  expert, 
I  am  at  least  aware  that,  as  Juvenal  might 
have  said,  he  made  the  Syrian  Jordan  flow 
into  the  Scamander:  he  Catholicised  Hellen- 
ism and  almost  canonised  Homer.     Indeed, 

7 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

it  was  with  reference  to  Mansel's  Bampton 
Lectures  and  Mr.  Gladstone's  Homeric 
speculation  that,  some  forty  years  ago,  the 
future  Bishop  Jeune  said  to  Bishop  Wilber- 
force  that  he  "  had  not  expected  to  see  the 
time  when  Atheism  would  be  demonstrated 
from  the  pulpit  of  St.  Mary's,  and  when  the 
member  for  the  University  of  Oxford  would 
advocate  the  worship  of  the  Pagan  divini- 
ties "  {Safe  Studies,  p.  247).  He  evidently 
held,  as  I  also  hold,  that  Mr.  Gladstone  was 
utterly  at  fault  when  he  tried  to  discover  a 
defaced  or  rudimentary  Trinity  amid  the 
debris  of  the  Hellenic  Pantheon.  And,  for 
myself,  I  will  further  maintain  that  from 
Mr.  Gladstone's  initial  error  in  this  matter — 
from  his  invention,  if  I  may  so  say,  of  an 
Athanasian  Iliad — has  arisen  a  false  note 
in  many  of  his  utterances  on  Homer.  How 
much,  then,  am  I  to  report  of  such  of  those 
utterances  as  I  heard?  To  this  question  I 
reply  that,  if  the  intimacy  with  which  he 
honoured  me  had  been  continued  and  con- 
tinually renewed  through  many  years,  in- 
stead of  being  practically  confined  to  a  score 
or  so  of  conversations,  I  should  doubtless, 
in  my  report  of  his  sayings  about  Homer, 
have  used  the  pruning-knife  pretty  freely. 

8 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

But,  as  the  case  now  stands,  and  as  my 
readers  will  doubtless  wish  to  see  something 
even  of  the  less  interesting  aspects  of  this 
eminently  interesting  character,  I  have 
thought  it  better  to  reduce  the  pruning 
process  to  a  minimum.  Nor  will  such  an 
examination  of  his  defective  side  be  unprofit- 
able. For,  in  very  truth,  the  saying  of  Cato 
that  "  wise  men  learn  more  from  fools  than 
fools  learn  from  wise  men,"  may  be  supple- 
mented with  a  corollary  that  more  is  to  be 
learnt  from  the  follies  of  the  wise  than  from 
the  common  sense  of  fools.  And  to  the  case 
now  before  us  such  a  corollary  has  a  special 
application.  For  the  Homeric  hallucination, 
as  I  cannot  but  think  it,  of  Mr.  Gladstone 
was  no  mere  excrescence  or  (so  to  say)  lusus 
sapiential,  but  was  correlated  with  the  rest 
of  his  spiritual  growth ;  it  was,  in  fact,  not 
so  much  the  vagary  of  a  scholar  as  the  sorry 
refuge  of  a  theologian  at  bay.  Let  us  see 
how  this  is  to  be  explained.  The  Compara- 
tive Method  or,  let  us  rather  say,  the  Evolu- 
tionary Principle,  when  applied  to  the  com- 
peting religions  of  the  world,  tends  to  bring 
out  what  they  have  in  common,  to  group 
them  all  under  a  single  law,  and,  if  I  may 
so  say,  to  lessen  the  extreme  inequality  of 

9 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

rank  which  has  hitherto  prevailed  among 
them.  It  is  true  that  to  Evolution,  inter- 
preted in  this  wide  sense,  Mr.  Gladstone 
would  have  strongly  objected.  But  none 
the  less  is  it  probable  that,  without  knowing 
it,  he  had  a  sprinkling  from  the  impetuous 
and  ubiquitous  "  stream  of  tendency."  He 
caught  the  evolutionary  contagion.  He  be- 
came so  far  a  philosophe  malgri  lui  that  he 
more  or  less  levelled  up  the  chief  religions, 
as  the  alternative  to  levelling  them  down. 
Something  of  the  divine  he  had  to  recog- 
nise in  all  of  them,  lest  haply  he  should  be 
constrained  to  erase  the  divine  from  all  of 
them.  Thus  he  gradually  came  to  regard 
the  greatest  poets  of  Hellenism  as  more  or 
less  inspired,  not  merely  in  the  colloquial 
and  metaphorical,  but  in  something  like  the 
theological  sense  of  the  word — inspired,  one 
may  say  vaguely,  not  merely  from  Mount 
Helicon,  but  from  Mount  Zion.  So  that  he 
essayed  to  hear,  and  at  last  imagined  that 
he  really  heard,  the  far-off  echo  of  a  revela- 
tion in  Homer. 

The  general  line  that  I  have  taken  about 
the  indirectly  theological  views  of  Mr.  Glad- 
stone may  be  extended  to  his  directly  theo- 
logical views.     But  between  the  two  cases 

10 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

there  is  a  difference.  Most  of  my  readers 
will  probably  agree  with  me  in  not  attaching 
much  weight  to  his  Homeric  speculations. 
But  many  of  them  will  attach  far  more 
weight  than  I  should  to  his  opinions  on  the- 
ology. Therefore,  what  he  said  to  me  on 
the  latter  subject  is  reported  almost  entire. 
In  conclusion,  I  need  hardly  insist  that  I 
am  entering  into  no  sort  of  competition  with 
any  complete  biography  of  Mr.  Gladstone 
which  may  have  been,  or  may  hereafter  be, 
brought  out  by  one  or  more  distinguished 
men  who  have  known  him  intimately  both 
in  his  public  and  private  character.  How, 
indeed,  could  I,  handicapped  as  I  am,  ad- 
venture on  such  an  unequal  race? 

"  Quid  enim  tremulis  facere  artubus  haedi 
Consimile  in  cursu  possint  et  fortis  equi  vis  ?  " 

Let  me  then  say,  or  rather  repeat,  that 
my  present  function  is  to  produce  what  may 
be  called  an  ethograph  of  Mr.  Gladstone — a 
photograph  of  his  moral  and  social  physi- 
ognomy, exactly  as  it  presented  itself  to  me. 
Nor  can  I  doubt  that,  somewhat  in  the  spirit 
of  Cromwell,  he  would  himself  have  wished 
that  impartial  justice  should  be  done  to  that 
moral  physiognomy,  a  physiognomy  which, 

ii 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

like  his  natural  face,  had  its  harsh  and  un- 
toward aspects,  but  which  was  all  the  more 
truly  venerable  for  its  wrinkled  and,  at  first 
sight,  repellent  grandeur.  It  is  superfluous 
for  me  to  add  that  I  shall  be  more  than  satis- 
fied if,  in  the  bewildering  chapter  of  acci- 
dents, it  should  be  written  that  even  this 
little  book  is  to  contribute  its  jot  and  tittle 
of  evidence,  at  once  trustworthy  and  favour- 
able, towards  the  final  judgment  which  will 
be  pronounced  on  him  by  posterity.  Habent 
sua  fata  libelli :  singular  fates  they  have 
sometimes,  and  such  as,  when  little  is  ex- 
pected, are  not  always  disappointing. 

L.  A.  T. 


NOTE 

SINCE  writing  this,  I  have  come  across  a  saying  of 
Tennyson  about  Mr.  Gladstone's  Homeric  specula- 
tions, which  confirms  the  view  taken  in  the  forego- 
ing pages :  "  Very  pleasant  and  very  interesting 
he  [Gladstone]  was,  even  when  he  discoursed  on 
Homer,  where  most  people  think  him  a  little  hobby- 
horsical  :  let  him  be.  His  hobby-horse  is  of  the  in- 
tellect and  with  a  grace."  This  opinion  should  be 
compared  or  contrasted  with  the  opinion  entertained 
by  Lake.      In  a  letter  of  mine,  entitled  "  Dr.  Lake 

12 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

at  Balliol,"  which  was  published  in  the  Spectator 
(Jan.  i,  1898),  there  is  a  passage  which  I  am  tempted 
to  quote,  concluding  as  it  does  with  a  high  and  just 
compliment  paid  by  the  future  Dean  of  Durham  to 
Mr.  Gladstone.  It  should  be  mentioned  that  the 
conversation  referred  to  occurred  in  my  undergrad- 
uate days,  some  forty  years  ago.  "  I  once  found 
Lake  reading  Mr.  Gladstone's  book  on  Homer, 
which  had  then  been  recently  published,  and  I  re- 
marked to  him  that,  in  Jowett's  opinion,  the  distin- 
guished author  had  ascribed  more  to  Homer  than 
Homer  himself  ever  dreamt  of;  was  this  criticism 
just?  'Possibly  to  some  extent,'  answered  Lake, 
with  a  grim  smile.  '  But  Mr.  Jowett  would  al- 
low only  a  minimum.  I  think  there  is  more  in 
Homer,  just  as  I  think  there  is  more  in  the  Bible, 
than  he  would  acknowledge.'  Then,  with  an  evi- 
dent allusion  to  my  veneration  for  Jowett,  he  touched 
on  the  propensity  of  youth  towards  somewhat  pro- 
miscuous hero-worship.  His  concluding  words  have 
stuck  in  my  memory  :  '  In  all  my  life  I  have  only 
known  three  men  of  commanding  greatness — Arnold, 
Newman,  Gladstone.'" 


13 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 
1856-1870 


"  Nee  vero  ille  in  luce  modo  atque  in  oculis  civium 
magnus,  sed  intus  domique  praestantior." 

Cicero. 

"  Seen  him  I  have,  but  in  his  happier  hour 
Of  social  pleasure,  ill-exchanged  for  power." 

Pope. 

IT  was  a  proud  moment  for  me  when  Mr. 
Gladstone,  who  was  then  canvassing  the 
Oxford  electors,  called  on  me  during  my 
first  year  of  residence  at  Balliol.  Between 
1856  and  1870  I  saw  him  several  times, 
chiefly  in  London  and  during  two  visits 
which  I  paid  at  Hawarden.  But,  instead  of 
wearying  my  readers  with  the  whereabouts 
and  the  whenabouts  of  my  interviews  with 
him,  I  will  at  once  jot  down  some  sayings 
of  his  which  belong  to  this  first  period  of 
our  acquaintance. 

My  father,  not  realising  to  what  extent  I 

was    handicapped    by    physical    drawbacks, 

was  continually  urging  me  to  go  to  the  Bar. 

At  his  request,  I  laid  the  matter  before  Mr. 

2  17 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Gladstone.     Mr.  Gladstone  thought  that  my 
extreme  nearsightedness  would  be  an  almost 
insuperable  obstacle  to  my  success  at  the 
Bar.     I  asked  him  if  I  should  try  diplomacy. 
His  reply  was  not  encouraging.     Indeed,  he 
said  that  he  should  not  wish  a  son  of  his  to 
become  a  diplomatist.     He  did  not  give  his 
reasons;  but  I  suspect  that  a  thought  was  in 
his   mind   similar  to   that   which    prompted 
Macaulay  to  write:    "  Every  calling  has  its 
peculiar  temptations.     There  is  no  injustice 
in  saying  that  diplomatists,  as  a  class,  have 
always    been    more    distinguished  by  their 
address,  by  the  art  with  which  they  win  the 
confidence  of  those  with  whom  they  have  to 
deal,  and  by  the  ease  with  which  they  catch 
the  tone  of  every  society  into  which  they  are 
admitted,  than  by  generous  enthusiasm  or 
austere  rectitude." 

He  went  on  to  recommend  to  me  a  Parlia- 
mentary career;  Parliamentary  work  would 
be  less  trying  to  the  eyesight  than  practice 
at  the  Bar.  He  presently  spoke  of ' '  official ' 
life.  Since  he  had  been  in  office,  he  had 
learnt  how  much  of  the  business  could  be 
deputed  to  trained  subordinates;  indeed, 
he  had  bestowed  some  pains  on  the  art  of 
thus  working  by  proxy.     Had  I  ever  thought 

18 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

of  trying  to  get  into  the  House  of  Commons  ? 
I  replied  that  I  had  turned  Whig,  to  the 
no  small  perturbation  of  my  kinsfolk.  My 
father,  who  was  then  in  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, and  who  was  a  strong  aristocrat  and 
a  still  stronger  autocrat,  would  never  have 
tolerated  my  voting  against  him  on  any 
question  which  he  deemed  important.  Mr. 
Gladstone  seemed  surprised,  and  added  that 
public  opinion  appeared  to  him  to  be  in  an 
unhealthy  state  in  regard  to  the  nature  and 
limits  of  the  patria  potestas.  If  a  son  of  his 
own  had  differed  from  him  in  politics,  he 
would  have  advised  him  not  to  enter  public 
life  till  he  was  twenty-six;  after  that  age, 
the  son  would  be  free  to  take  an  independent 
line.  Mr.  Gladstone  thought  it  monstrous 
that  Lord  Stanley  (the  late  Lord  Derby), 
who  was  then  about  forty  years  old,  should 
be  practically  compelled  to  join  the  Con- 
servative party,  in  opposition  to  what  were 
believed  to  be  his  private  convictions.  At 
the  time  of  this  conversation  I  myself  was 
in  my  twenty-fifth  year.  Mr.  Gladstone 
advised  me  to  decide  on  a  profession  soon. 
After  twenty-five  the  mind  could  not  easily 
take  a  fresh  direction,  though  it  might  make 
great  progress  in  a  direction  already  taken. 

*9 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

He  did  not,  let  me  here  repeat,  often  talk 
to  me  about  politics;  but  I  remember  his 
once  saying,  with  great  emphasis,  that  the 
years  which  followed  the  close  of  the  Great 
War  seemed  to  him  to  be  among  the  most 
disgraceful  in  our  history:  "  The  Tory  Gov- 
ernment passed  a  new  Corn  Law." 

I  asked  him  whether  he  did  not  think  that 
the  days  of  the  English  aristocracy  were 
numbered.  Might  not  what  Tennyson  says 
of  religious  systems  be  applied  to  aristocra- 
cies: "  They  have  their  day,  and  cease  to 
be  "?  In  other  words,  was  not  De  Tocque- 
ville  right  in  thinking  that,  by  an  inexorable 
law,  all  things  make  for  democracy?  Mr. 
Gladstone  answered  that  this  broad  state- 
ment of  De  Tocqueville  appeared  to  him  to 
be  founded  on  a  hasty  generalisation.  In 
particular,  he  thought  that  the  feudal  senti- 
ment and  traditions  were  deeply  rooted  in 
England.  He  defended  his  opinion  by  citing 
two  examples  which,  I  own,  did  not  appear 
to  me  very  conclusive.  One  of  them  I  will 
repeat,  as  nearly  as  I  can  remember  it.  He 
told  me  that  a  certain  peer,  who  was  a  friend 
of  his,  had  recently  died.  He  himself  had 
consulted  the  man  of  business  as  to  the 
choice  of  an  agent  who  would  give  satisfac- 

20 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

tion  to  the  tenants.  The  man  of  business 
replied  that  what  would  please  the  tenants 
most  would  be  the  appointment  of  an 
agent  who  could  claim  kinship  with  the  late 
lord. 

In  July  1864,  I  was  so  fortunate  as  to 
meet  Mr.  Mill  at  breakfast  with  Mr.  Glad- 
stone.1 The  two  eminent  men  talked  about 
the  probable  effect  of  the  war  between  Prussia 
and  Denmark.  Mr.  Gladstone  mentioned 
that  a  high  financial  authority  had  expressed 
the  opinion  that,  if  Canada  were  ever  an- 
nexed by  the  United  States,  the  value  of 
land  in  Canada  would  be  greatly  increased 
(I  think  he  said  "  doubled  ");  and  I  under- 
stood  Mr.    Gladstone  to  add   that,   in  like 

1  Some  fragments  of  the  remarks  made  by  Mr.  Mill  on 
this,  to  me,  memorable  occasion,  are  indicated  in  Safe 
Studies,  p.  263,  and  in  the  Memoir  of  Jowett,  p.  101 
(note).  I  am  tempted  here  to  report  another  observation 
which  Mr.  Mill  then  made.  He  told  me  that  his  father 
used  to  say  that  all  war  would  speedily  be  brought  to  an 
end  if  only,  in  every  battle,  the  soldiers  on  each  side  would 
direct  all  their  efforts  towards  shooting  the  commander-in- 
chief  of  the  opposite  party.  I  asked  him  whether,  if  this 
practice  were  set  on  foot,  commanders-in-chief  would  not 
soon  learn,  like  Ahab  at  Ramoth  Gilead,  to  resort  to  the 
obvious  expedient  of  a  disguise.  "Yes,"  he  replied 
gloomily,  "lam  afraid  that  the  causes  of  war  lie  too  deep 
for  so  simple  a  remedy." 

21 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

manner,  the  value  of  land  in  Schleswig- 
Holstein  would  be  increased  by  the  annexa- 
tion of  those  provinces  to  such  an  active  and 
progressive  nation  as  Prussia. 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  talk  of  his  own 
somewhat  romantic  mission  to  Greece.  He 
appeared  to  think  that  the  old  Greek  type 
of  countenance  still  lingered  in  Continental 
Greece  more  than  is  commonly  supposed. 
I  reminded  him  of  the  statement  quoted  by 
Gibbon  from  a  Byzantine  historian  that  "  all 
Greece  has  been  slavonised  and  become 
barbarous."  "  Yes,"  replied  Mr.  Gladstone, 
"  I  remember  the  passage  well ;  and  does  not 
Gibbon  go  on  to  say  that  the  language  is  as 
barbarous  as  the  idea?"  I  have  thought 
this  worth  recording  as  serving  to  show  that, 
little  as  he  sympathised  with  Gibbon,  he  yet 
knew  Gibbon's  History  well. 

He  told  Mr.  Mill  that  he  had  never  wit- 
nessed such  complete  and  contented  idleness 
as  at  Corfu.  He  related  that  he  had  there 
seen  three  men  leisurely  occupied  in  driving 
two  turkeys  along  the  road.  Before  pro- 
nouncing a  judgment  on  this  queer  otium 
sine  dignitate,  one  would  wish  to  know  what 
were  its  antecedent  conditions,  and  how  far 
the  instance  was  a  typical  one. 

22 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  well  remember  a  long  walk  which  I  took 
with  Mr.  Gladstone  one  Sunday  afternoon 
at  Hawarden.  In  the  course  of  it,  I  referred 
to  Mill's  contention  that  slave-grown  cotton 
was  exhausting  the  soil  of  the  Southern 
States,  and  that,  even  from  a  purely  com- 
mercial point  of  view,  emancipation  was 
likely  to  be  a  gain;  was  Mr.  Gladstone  of 
the  same  opinion?  He  replied  that  he  ab- 
horred slavery,  but  that  he  nevertheless 
feared  that  abolition  would,  in  the  first  in- 
stance at  any  rate,  be  attended  with  financial 
difficulties. 

I  went  on  to  ask  him  how  he  explained 
the  strong  antipathy  expressed  by  nearly  all 
Anglo-Americans  for  coloured  men.  The 
repulsion  thus  inspired  by  the  typical  negro 
is  commonly  described  as  physical  and  as 
irremediable,  being,  in  fact,  of  the  nature 
indicated  by  Sydney  Smith  in  his  famous 
adaptation  of  Virgil — 

"  Et,  si  non  alium  late  jactaret  odorem, 
Civ  is  erat." 

Macaulay  had  said  in  conversation  that, 
in  his  opinion,  there  was  much  exaggeration 
in  this  and  kindred  statements;  he  found  it 
hard  to  reconcile  them  with  the  very  close 

23 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

personal  relation  which  not  unfrequently 
subsists  between  individuals  of  the  two 
races.  Did  not  Mr.  Gladstone  also  think 
that  the  antipathy  in  question  is,  in  great 
part,  born  of  imagination?  His  answer  was 
decidedly  in  the  affirmative.  In  support  of 
his  opinion,  he  mentioned  the  case  (to  which 
I  shall  have  occasion  to  revert  further  on)  of 
a  negro  gentleman  whom  he  had  himself 
known,  and  who  was,  not  merely  agreeable 
and  accomplished,  but  distinguished  by  the 
refinement  of  his  manners. 

We  fell  to  talking  about  physiognomy. 
He  gave  me  the  impression  of  more  or  less 
agreeing  with  Duncan,  that  there  is  no  art 
to  find  the  mind's  construction  in  the  face. 
In  defence  of  his  view,  he  cited  the  example 
of  a  distinguished  politician  who  was  then 
in  the  House  of  Commons,  and  who  had 
been  one  of  the  pioneers  of  Free  Trade:  "  I 
detest  his  countenance;  but  I  believe  that  a 
more  upright  and  honourable  man  never 
lived."  There  was  something  "intense" 
in  Mr.  Gladstone's  voice  as  he  said  this, 
which  was  typical  of  his  mode  of  conversing. 
His  talk  was  not  rhetorical;  but  it  was  em- 
phatically the  talk  of  an  orator.  In  other 
words,    it   was   not    through   rounded    sen- 

24 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

tences,  nor  through  a  spouting,  and,  so  to 
say,  rounding  delivery,  but  through  the 
frequent  use  of  strong  phrases  vocally  itali- 
cised, and  perhaps  I  should  add,  through  the 
not  infrequent  accumulation  of  nearly  syn- 
onymous epithets  where  perhaps  a  single 
epithet  would  have  sufficed,  that  the  note 
of  the  orator  was  discernible  in  his  discourse. 
It  was,  if  my  memory  serves  me,  on  the 
evening  of  the  same  Sunday  that  Mr.  Glad- 
stone conversed  with  me  about  the  Classics 
and  likewise  about  Theology.  I  asked  some 
questions  about  the  Homeric  poems;  and 
when  I  presently  expressed  a  fear  that  I  was 
boring  him,  he  very  graciously  cut  short  my 
apology  by  saying  that,  after  all  the  tumult 
and  bustle  of  politics,  he  felt  himself  "  in 
heaven"  when  he  was  breathing  the  pure 
atmosphere  of  Homer.  He  appeared  to 
me,  I  confess,  less  to  advantage  when  he 
passed  into  the  region  of  Theology.  I  was 
so  audacious  as  to  make  some  strictures  on 
the  character  of  David.  Were  the  vindictive 
and  perfidious  injunctions  given  by  the  dying 
king  to  his  successor  easily  reconciled  with 
his  claim  to  be  accounted  a  man  after  God's 
own  heart?  During  this  part  of  our  conver- 
sation the  late  Lord  Lyttelton  was  present, 

25 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  made  the  very  natural  remark  that  this 
was  an  old  crux,  but  that  he  thought  the 
difficulty  could  be  got  over.  What  surprised 
me  about  Mr.  Gladstone  was  that,  in  this 
part  of  the  discussion,  he  seemed  to  be  tread- 
ing on  new  ground.  Perhaps  his  mind  was 
preoccupied,  or  I  may  have  failed  to  under- 
stand him ;  but  he  certainly  seemed  to  me 
to  speak  as  if  he  was  puzzled  to  make  out 
what  I  meant,  and  as  if  this  whole  class  of 
objections  had  never  crossed  his  mind. 

Our  controversy  on  Old  Testament  ethics 
was  merely  an  episode  in  a  friendly  discus- 
sion on  one  of  Mr.  Gladstone's  favourite 
topics.  He  said  that  he  had  one  fault  to 
find  with  the  Oxford  Liberals  which  he  could 
never  get  over:  they  made  such  small  ac- 
count of  Bishop  Butler.  I  did  my  best  to 
clear  up  the  anomaly  which  so  embarrassed 
and  pained  him ;  but  the  solution  which  I 
offered  did  not  satisfy  him.  As  I  shall  have 
occasion  to  revert  to  this  subject,  it  may 
obviate  the  necessity  of  further  explanation 
if  I  state,  more  explicitly  than  I  ventured  to 
state  to  Mr.  Gladstone,  the  causes  which 
excite  in  some  Oxford  Liberals  so  strong  an 
antipathy  to  what  he  called  the  "  Butlerian  ' 
system.     It  must  be  premised  that  many  of 

26 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

those  Liberals  regard  Butler  as  a  less  logical 
Mansel;  insomuch  that  Mansel's  Bampton 
Lectures  may  be  described  as  Butler's 
Analogy  writ  plain.  Now,  Oxford  Liberals 
of  the  class  indicated  by  Mr.  Gladstone 
generally  sympathise  with  what  may  be 
termed  the  Left  Centre  of  Theology,  and 
perhaps,  next  to  that,  with  the  Right 
Centre.  On  the  other  hand,  Butler's  and 
Mansel's  reasoning  is  a  weapon  which  the 
Extreme  Right  and  the  Extreme  Left  com- 
bine to  use  against  the  Right  Centre  and  the 
Left  Centre,  but  which  they  are  powerless 
to  employ  against  one  another.  Nay,  we 
may  go  the  length  of  saying  that  the  weapon 
which  Catholics  employ  with  such  deadly 
effect  against  the  orthodox  Protestant  is  the 
self-same  Butlerian  weapon  wherewith  he 
himself  is  wont,  so  confidently  and  so  piti- 
lessly, to  transfix  all  Liberal  Protestants — 

"  The  treacherous  instrument  is  in  thy  hand, 
Unbated  and  envenomed." 

Nor  is  this  all.  The  argument  of  the 
Analogy,  if  pressed  to  its  conclusions,  would 
interdict  the  application  of  our  human  stand- 
ard of  ethics  to  any  alleged  divine  revela- 
tion, and  would  consequently  yield  every- 

27 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

thing  to  the  faith  which,  if  the  phrase  may 
be  allowed,  bids  highest  in  miracles.  I  once 
heard  Jowett  make  the  admission  that,  on 
that  principle,  a  strong  case  might  be  made 
out  for  Brahminism.  At  all  events,  without 
presuming  to  award  the  thaumaturgical  palm, 
his  disciples  are  dismayed  when  they  reflect 
with  what  ease  and  with  what  fatal  results 
the  too  accommodating  and  transferable,  or, 
as  Bunyan  might  have  said,  facing  both  ways, 
logic  of  Butler  could  be  turned  to  account 
by  the  enemies  of  religion.  For,  as  viewed 
from  the  standpoint  of  those  enemies,  the 
argument  of  Butler  and  Mansel  amounts  to 
this,  "If  we  are  not  prepared  to  believe 
everything,  we  must  believe  nothing.  Gar- 
dez-vous  de  ce  premier  pas  qui  coilte.  Give 
Supernaturalism  an  inch,  and  it  claims  the 
Universe." 

And  now,  before  proceeding  to  my  later 
and  longer  conversations  with  Mr.  Glad- 
stone, I  propose  to  make  one  or  two  of 
those  illustrative  comments  of  which  I  have 
already  spoken.  With  this  object  in  view, 
it  will  be  convenient  to  go  back  a  little. 
When  preparing  myself  for  my  first  visit  to 
Hawarden,  I  had  a  talk  with  an  able  man 
whose  name  I  will  not  disclose,  but  of  whom 

28 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  will  say  that  he  knew  Mr.  Gladstone  well; 
and  I  asked  him  (in  effect)  so  to  furbish  me 
up  intellectually  that  I  might  not  be  wholly 
unpresentable  when  brought  face  to  face  with 
the  great  man.  Especially  did  I  wish  to 
know  whether  it  would  be  safe  to  express 
modern  views  in  his  presence.  What  has 
already  been  related  may  be  taken  as  in 
some  sort  answering  this  question.  Never- 
theless, it  may  be  of  use  to  report  the  an- 
swer, or  rather  the  general  account  of  Mr. 
Gladstone,  which  my  experienced  informant 
gave  me.  He  advised  me  to  beware,  during 
my  stay  at  Hawarden,  of  expressing  heretical 
opinions  before  my  orthodox  host.  Mr. 
Gladstone,  he  went  on  to  say,  was  distin- 
guished by  two  great  qualities,  each  of  which 
he  possessed  in  an  extraordinary  degree, 
and  the  combination  of  which  he  possessed 
in  a  degree  almost,  if  not  quite,  unprece- 
dented. These  qualities  were,  first,  the 
oratorical  faculty,  and,  secondly,  the  power 
of  mastering  details.  But  the  oratorical 
faculty  has  its  drawbacks.  Being  so  strongly 
developed  in  Mr.  Gladstone,  it  generated  in 
him  an  abnormal,  if  not  morbid,  intensity 
of  purpose.  Whatsoever  his  mind  or  his 
head  found  to  do,  he  did  it  with  his  might. 

29 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

The  result  was  that  his  intellect  grew  to  be 
like  the  giant  oak,  wanting  in  pliancy  by 
reason  of  its  massive  strength.  His  difficulty 
in  sympathising  with  opponents  was  meas- 
ured by  his  unfaltering  conviction — a  convic- 
tion as  intense  as  that  of  St.  Paul  or  of 
Savonarola — that  his  own  cause  was  the 
cause  of  God.  My  friend  concluded  by  tell- 
ing me  that  the  great  orator's  eager  and,  as 
it  were,  hypnotic  absorption  in  whatever  he 
took  up  was  sometimes  apparent  even  in 
trivial  matters,  and  that  at  such  times  it 
was  apt  to  become  extravagant,  and  even 
oppressive:  "  He  will  talk  about  a  piece  of 
old  china  as  if  he  was  standing  before  the 
judgment-seat  of  God." 

I  have,"  said  Charles  Lamb,  "  an  almost 
feminine  partiality  for  old  china."  Prob- 
ably this  predilection  was  the  only  point 
which  Lamb  and  Mr.  Gladstone  had  in  com- 
mon. And,  even  in  that  point  of  resem- 
blance, there  was  a  marked  difference  be- 
tween the  two  men.  For,  in  the  case  of 
Mr.  Gladstone,  this  "  feminine  partiality," 
as  it  were,  put  on  virility  through  its  contact 
with  his  eminently  masculine  nature.  How 
quixotic,  or  rather  how  Quixote-like,  how 
grandly  fantastic  he  was  in  that  infatuation, 

30 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

even  as  in  his  infatuation  about  Helen  of 
Troy !  I  never  ceased  to  be  grateful  to  the 
late  Lady  de  Tabley  who,  one  evening  when 
she  and  I  were  guests  of  the  Gladstones, 
espied  me  nescio  quid  meditantem  nugarum 
in  a  distant  corner,  and  hurried  me  across 
the  room  just  in  time  to  see  Mr.  Gladstone 
holding  up  a  piece  of  old  china,  and  to  take 
note  of  the  flashing  eye  and  the  Rhadaman- 
thine  solemnity  with  which  the  great  enthu- 
siast was  winding  up  his  discourse. 

Passing  on  to  a  less  quaintly  trivial  mat- 
ter, I  will  add  another  example  of  the  way 
in  which  Mr.  Gladstone,  in  what  may  be 
termed  his  intellectual  paintings,  was  apt  to 
lay  on  the  colours  too  thick.  A  distinguished 
Liberal  told  me,  many  years  ago,  that  he 
had  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  if  he  did  not  think 
it  a  matter  of  regret  that  the  young  men  of 
the  time  seemed  to  take  little  interest  in  the 
debates  in  the  House  of  Commons.  Mr. 
Gladstone  laid  his  hand  on  my  friend's  arm, 
and  explained  with  awe-inspiring  emphasis 
that  the  indifference  thus  shown  by  the 
rising  generation  appeared  to  him  to  be  a 
"  plague-spot  '  in  the  body  politic.  My 
informant,  though  himself  a  very  earnest 
man,  evidently  thought  that  Mr.  Gladstone, 

3i 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

by  his  vehement  and,  so  to  say,  Apocalyptic 
use  of  language,  showed  a  certain  want  of 
moral  perspective. 

It  will  now  be  understood  what  Walter 
Bagehot  meant  by  saying  of  him: — 

"He  is  interested  in  everything  he  has  to  do  with, 
and  often  interested  too  much.  He  proposes  to  put 
a  stamp  on  contract  notes  with  an  eager  earnestness 
as  if  the  destiny  of  Europe  here  and  hereafter  de- 
pended upon  its  enactment.  .  .  .  The  oratorical 
impulse  is  a  disorganising  impulse.  The  higher 
faculties  of  the  mind  require  a  certain  calm,  and  the 
excitement  of  oratory  is  unfavourable  to  that  calm." 

The  latter  part  of  this  extract  may  seem 
irrelevant;  but  I  quote  it  as  leading  up  to 
a  matter  on  which  I  wish  to  touch  briefly. 
I  had  a  talk  with  Jowett  about  Mr.  Glad- 
stone some  forty  years  ago,  that  is  to  say, 
before  he  had  begun  to  entertain  the  antip- 
athy for  him  which  he  freely  expressed  in 
later  years.  What,  I  asked,  did  he  make 
of  the  fact  that  this  most  religious  of  our 
politicians  was  often  charged  with  being 
dishonest  ?  His  answer  was  on  this  wise: 
"  Gladstone  is  not  dishonest;  but  it  is  nat- 
ural that  persons  who  do  not  understand 
him  should  think  him  dishonest."  He  went 
on    to   make   some   explanatory  and    other 

32 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

general  remarks;  but  the  only  one  of  those 
remarks  that  I  can  distinctly  recall  is,  that 
he  expressed  a  better  opinion  of  Mr.  Glad- 
stone than  of  Bishop  Wilberforce.  His 
explanation,  however,  left  certain  vague 
impressions  on  my  mind;  and  I  have  often 
felt  a  wish,  as  an  architect  might  say,  to 
restore  that  explanation,  or  rather  to  give 
shape  to  the  general  impression  which  I  my- 
self have  derived  from  this  and  from  more 
direct  sources.  How  came  it  about,  let  me 
repeat,  that  this  conspicuously  upright  and 
conscientious  statesman  was  so  grievously 
misunderstood?  Such  a  misunderstanding, 
if  not  accounted  for  as  founded  on  some 
plausible  error,  is  thought  to  warrant  the 
suspicion  of  being  founded  on  fact;  and 
therefore,  without  pretending  wholly  to 
clear  up  the  misconstruction  under  which 
Mr.  Gladstone  laboured,  I  feel  bound,  after 
enjoying  the  privilege  of  his  friendship,  to 
throw  out  one  or  two  explanatory  sugges- 
tions. 

Let  me,  then,  begin  by  observing  that  the 
faults  of  a  great  and  good  man  always  stand 
out  conspicuously  in  relief.  Not  only  are 
they  conspicuous  because  he  is  conspicuous, 
and  because  they  are  seen  in  broad  contrast 
3  33 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

to  his  virtues,  but  also  because  the  high 
ideal  which  he  sets  up  is  a  standing  rebuke 
to  the  self-complacent  mediocrity  of  his 
neighbours,  and  tempts  them  to  indemnify 
themselves  by  means  of  reprisals;  insomuch 
that  to  the  saint  or  hero  as  well  as  to  the 
Pharisee — to  him  who,  holding  high  and,  as 
it  were,  reproachful  ideals,  strives  to  act  up 
to  them,  as  well  as  to  him  who  does  not — 
should  the  Divine  caution  be  addressed : 
"  With  what  measure  ye  mete  it  shall  be 
measured  to  you  again."  Mr.  Gladstone, 
in  particular,  stood  in  need  of  this  caution. 
Being  an  orator,  he  was  wont  to  think  and 
to  speak  with  his  emotions  at  red  heat,  and 
to  give  utterance  to  burning  and  provocative 
words  when  he  passed  censure  on  folly  and 
sin.  Also,  he  laid  himself  open  to  attack  by 
his  political  change  of  front.  No  doubt  this 
transition  of  his,  in  an  age  of  transition,  was 
in  a  sense  appropriate,  and  furnished  one  of 
the  many  proofs  of  his  conscientiousness. 
"  To  live  is  to  change,"  says  Newman, 
"  and  to  be  perfect  is  to  have  changed 
often."  There  is  some  truth  in  this  obser- 
vation, though  it  is  too  broadly  expressed, 
and  though  it  comes  oddly  from  an  upholder 
of  the  most  unbending  of  creeds.     But,  at 

34 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

any  rate,  to  rank  changefulness  of  this  kind 
as  a  virtue  is  to  set  up  a  counsel  of  imper- 
fection. "  Unstable  as  water,"  says  the 
Scripture,  "thou  shalt  not  excel";  and 
assuredly  the  man  of  many  changes,  the 
sort  of  man  whom  Aristotle  would  have 
called  a  chameleon,  cannot  hope  to  inspire 
confidence.  He  is  liable  to  excite  an  appre- 
hension that  (if  I  may  so  express  myself)  he 
may  one  day  become  a  re-turncoat,  or  else 
may  be,  not  a  turncoat  only,  but  a  turn 
waistcoat  as  well;  in  other  words,  he  may 
either  go  back,  or  else  go  forward  too  fast 
and  too  far.  Thus  it  was  that,  being  at 
once  an  orator  and  (in  the  literal  sense)  a 
renegade,  Mr.  Gladstone  was  severely  han- 
dled, and  ran  the  risk  of  being  overwhelmed 
by  a  flood  of  invectives.  In  fear  of  such 
submersion,  he  caught  at  straws,  and  per- 
suaded himself  that  they  were  solid  planks. 
To  lay  aside  metaphor,  he  was  subtle  and 
even  sophistical  in  his  explanations  of  his 
devious  courses.  Yet  in  giving  these  ex- 
planations he  was  perfectly  sincere. 

Sincerity  under  these  conditions  would 
have  been  impossible  to  a  philosopher ;  but 
it  came  easily  to  such  a  typical  orator  as 
Mr.  Gladstone.     For  the  typical  orator,  in 

35 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

whom,  as  in  women,  feeling  is  believing, 
resembles  women  likewise  in  their  perilously 
convenient  capacity  for  self-deception.  But 
the  hallucinations  of  the  orator,  those  veri- 
table eidola  fori,  are  just  what  Philistines 
cannot,  and  political  opponents  will  not, 
understand.  Nor  can  it  be  denied  that  on 
that  ground  the  opponents  of  Mr.  Gladstone 
could  build  up  a  plausible  case.  Thus,  when 
Disraeli  said  of  him  that  "  he  was  inebriated 
with  the  exuberance  of  his  own  verbosity," 
it  must  be  admitted  that  in  that  eminently 
Disraelitish  phrase — itself  not  conspicuous 
for  the  simplicity  of  its  diction — there  was 
the  element  of  truth  that  Mr.  Gladstone 
was  sometimes  not  the  master  but  the  ser- 
vant of  his  emotions,  and  even  of  his  meta- 
phors. The  result  of  all  this  was  that,  in 
the  popular  imagination,  his  subtlety  of 
reasoning  came  to  be  associated  with  that 
moral  indirectness  which  the  word  subtlety 
often  connotes.  Indeed,  his  unconscious 
special  pleading  was  at  last  mistaken  for 
deliberate  insincerity.  Hence  it  appears 
that  the  dishonesty  of  which  he  has  often 
been  accused,  resolves  itself  into  the  seem- 
ing dishonesty  of  an  orator  who  is  also  a 
man  of  action,  or  (let  us  say)  of  a  statesman 

36 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

who  often  unwittingly  has  recourse  to  com- 
promises such  as  he  has  often  eloquently 
denounced ;  it  is,  in  fact,  dishonesty  simulated 
by  impassioned  honesty.  For,  in  very  truth, 
a  saintly  enthusiast,  seeking  to  practise  all 
that  he  has  preached,  is  trying  to  maintain 
himself  on  a  level  too  high  for  human  nature 
{ceratis  ope  Daedalea  Nititur  pennis). 1 

With  this  intensity,  born  of  oratorical 
sensibility,  was  closely  connected  another 
aspect  of  Mr.  Gladstone's  mind,  which  must 
be  mentioned  as  throwing  light  on  certain 
parts  of  his  conversations  with  me.  He  was 
not  affected  or  afflicted  with  that  need  of 
laughing  to  prevent  weeping,  with  that 
mingled  sense  of  world-humour  and  of  world- 
pathos — in  short,  with  that  appetite  for  the 
incongruous — which  is  a  characteristic  prod- 
uct   of    decadence,    and    which,    like    a   fair 

1  The  difficulty  of  keeping  aloft,  during  a  long  period, 
at  the  enthusiastically  moral,  or  rather  at  the  apostolic, 
level  is  set  forth  by  Renan  forcibly,  though  doubtless  with 
some  exaggeration.  Referring  to  the  protracted  and 
checquered  career  of  Mahomet,  and  apparently  making  at 
the  same  time  an  indirect  allusion  to  the  early  death  of 
One  greater  than  Mahomet,  he  observes  :  "  L'homme  est 
trop  faible  pour  porter  longtemps  la  mission  divine,  et 
ceux-la  seuls  sont  immacules  que  Dieu  a  bientot  decharge's 
du  fardeau  de  l'apostolat." 

37 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

plant  springing  up  from  a  manured  soil, 
derives  much  of  its  sustenance  from  the 
noisome  tragedies  of  life.  Indeed,  he  had 
no  toleration — I  had  almost  said  no  compre- 
hension— of  that  Epicurean  and,  so  to  say, 
Renanesque  quality  which  French  writers 
call ' '  ironie  ' '  and  Bagehot  has  called  ' '  pleas- 
ant cynicism."  Perhaps  I  should  be  merely 
expressing  the  same  thought  in  other  words 
if  I  were  to  say  that,  himself  demanding 
much  from  human  nature,  he  had  no  sym- 
pathy or  patience  with  those  who  demanded 
little  from  it.  In  short,  he  would  not,  like 
Pope,  have  declared  the  "  ninth  beatitude' 
to  be  "  Blessed  is  he  who  expects  nothing, 
for  he  shall  never  be  disappointed. ' '  Rather 
would  he  have  agreed  with  Kingsley  in  call- 
ing that  a  "devil's  beatitude."  It  is  not 
necessary  to  dwell  further  on  this  side  of  Mr. 
Gladstone's  character.  Suffice  it  to  say  that 
his  rooted  aversion  to  cynicism  and  scepti- 
cism of  all  sorts  may  serve  to  explain  the  tone 
of  some  of  his  observations  recorded  in  the 
sequel.  Especially  may  it  account  for  the 
severity  with  which  he  spoke  to  me  of  Talley- 
rand, and  even  of  Matthew  Arnold,  and  for 
his  earnest  exhortation  to  keep  alive  the 
sense  of  sin. 

38 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Dean  Swift,  hearing  someone  described  as 
"  a  fine  old  man,"  petulantly  exclaimed: 
"  A  fine  old  man?  There  is  no  such  thing. 
If  the  man  you  speak  of  had  either  a  mind 
or  a  body  worth  a  farthing,  they  would  have 
worn  him  out  long  ago."  Could  such  an 
inhuman  outcry  of  despair  have  proceeded 
from  anyone  who  had  known  our  wise  orator 
and  statesman  when  the  mellowing  hand  of 
time  had  passed  upon  him,  and  who  had 
felt,  when  the  news  came  that  he  too  had 
gone  to  his  rest  in  the  eternal,  how  sad  was 
the  loss,  not  to  his  friends  only,  but  to  his 
country? 

Personally,  I  have  often  thought  that  the 
noble,  if  somewhat  invidious,  tribute  of 
praise  which  was  originally  bestowed  on 
Tiresias,  and  which  Cato  applied  to  the 
younger  Scipio,  could  be  transferred  to 
the   veteran   Gladstone — 

<(,Oica  7te7tyvd0ai,  Toi  8e  6mai  di66ov6iv.in 

For  truly  in  this  estimable  but  mediocre 
generation  of  ours — this  generation  so  pro- 
lific of  talent,  but  so  barren  of  genius — he 

1  Translated  in  North's  Plutarch— 

"  This  only  man  right  wise  reputed  is  to  be  ; 
All  other  seem  but  shadows  set,  by  such  wise  men  as  he." 

39 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

stood  forth,  during  the  closing  years  of  his 
life,  as  a  monumental  relic  of  a  mightier  age 
which  has  passed  away.  To  those  closing 
years  I  now  transport  my  readers.  Our 
scene  is  transferred  from  England  to  Biarritz, 
at  the  same  time  that  our  drama  (after  the 
manner  of  the  Winter  s  Tale)  overleaps  a 
score  of  years.  Let  me  add  that  hencefor- 
ward the  report  of  the  dialogues  will  be  in  a 
quasi-dramatic,  or,  to  speak  more  exactly, 
in  a  Boswellian  and  diaristic  form. 


40 


Talks   With  Mr.   Gladstone 
1891-1896 


II 


"  Sideris  instar 
Emicuit  Stilichonis  apex,  et  cognita  fulsit 
Canities." 

Claudian. 
{Paraphrased) 

"  A  Grand  Old  Man." 

Hotel  d'Angleterre,  Biarritz. 

December  1891. — Mr.  Gladstone  called  on 
us.  He  complained  that  Butler  is  not  cared 
for  on  the  Continent.  Kant  had  been  in- 
fluenced by  him,  and  acknowledged  it; 
Lotze  also  spoke  in  high  terms  of  him. 
Mr.  Gladstone  was  slow  in  seeing  what  I 
meant  when  I  said  that  the  argument  of 
Butler's  Analogy  is  many-sided:  that,  if  it 
disables  human  reason  from  dealing  with  the 
moral  anomalies  of  one  religion,  it  gives 
the  like  negative  support  to  all  religions; 
and  that,  in  fact,  it  may  as  easily  be  used 
in  defence  of  the  massacre  of  St.  Bartholo- 
mew, and  even  of  Thuggee,  as  in  defence  of 

43 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Joshua's  massacres  and  Jael's  treachery. 
He  said  that  he  did  not  remember  that 
Butler  referred  to  these,  but  afterwards 
admitted  that  his  argument  might  be  so 
applied.  I  said  that  Catholics  might  think 
that  Butler's  argument  told  more  for  them 
than  for  us.  He  hardly  seemed  to  see  my 
point,  but  said  that  Catholicism  seemed  to 
be  the  only  subject  on  which  Butler  lost  his 
usual  impartiality  and  became  violent.  He 
said  that  Lotze  and  others  valued  Butler 
mainly  as  a  theologian ;  he  himself  valued 
him  even  more  as  a  philosopher;  he  called 
him  "the  guide  through  the  perplexities  of 
thought  and  conduct  in  modern  life."  On 
the  side  of  the  importance  of  Butler,  unwill- 
ing testimony,  he  said,  was  given  by  Mark 
Pattison :  "The  pains  that  he  took  to  de- 
throne my  idol  are  significant."  He  also 
quoted  Miss  Hennell,  who  wrote  a  pamphlet 
called  On  the  Sceptical  Tc7idencics  of  Butler  s 
"Analogy."  He  thought  that  this  pamphlet 
had  not  received  the  attention  it  deserved. 
Miss  Hennell,  while  attacking  Butler,  ex- 
presses her  strong  admiration  for  him.  He 
thought  that  the  neglect  of  Butler  was  a 
blot  upon  Oxford. 

He  said  that  his  only  complaint  against 

44 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Biarritz  was  that  the  society  was  too  exclu- 
sively English.  On  my  saying  that  I  chiefly 
complained  of  its  want  of  intellectuality,  he 
went  off  on  the  subject  of  the  great  intel- 
lectual progress  made  by  women.  He  had 
written  an  article  in  the  Speaker  on  the  great 
number  of  poetesses  who  were  scarcely 
known  as  they  deserved  to  be.  He  spoke 
of  Mrs.  Browning  as  the  only  exception. 
I  referred  to  George  Eliot ;  but  he  would 
not  admit  her  claim.  He  mentioned  Miss 
Constance  Naden,  Emily  Bronte,  Lady 
Charlotte  Eliot,  and  Mrs.  Clive,  the  author- 
ess of  "  X  Poems  by  V."  He  referred 
especially  to  her  poem  on  "  Invitations  to 
the  Queen's  Ball,"  as  dealing  with  an  un- 
promising subject,  but  showing  powerful 
imagination.  He  had  talked  on  the  subject 
of  these  overlooked  poetesses  with  Tenny- 
son, who  agreed  with  him. 

Referring  to  Charles  Austin,  he  spoke 
with  disappointment  of  his  having  done  so 
little  in  after  life.  I  asked  whether  he  did 
not  think  that  men,  not  very  strong  phys- 
ically, sometimes  overstrained  themselves 
when  young,  and  that  then,  like  the  flower- 
ing aloe,  they  were  completely  exhausted. 
He  admitted  this,  and  added  that  a  career 

45 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

like  that  of  Charles  Austin  was  especially- 
open  to  objection,  as  withdrawing  very  able 
men  from  leaving  anything  of  permanent 
value.1  I  asked  whether  he  was  referring 
to  the  Bar  in  general  or  to  the  Parliamentary 
Bar  in  particular.  He  replied  that  he  meant 
the  latter,  and  instanced  Hope  Scott. 

I  accompanied  him  to  the  Grand  Hotel, 
where  he  was  staying.  He  characteristically 
remarked  that  this  hotel  has  seven  gates, 
and  that  he  called  it  E7tra.Ttv\oi  &f/flai. 

December  23,  1891. — I  dined  with  Mr. 
Armitstead  and  the  Gladstones.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone said  that  the  science  of  "  pre-history  " 
is  quite  new;  and  he  went  on  to  remark  that 
the  Basques  pay  greater  respect  to  women 
now  than  anyone  in  Europe  paid  to  them 
in  the  Middle  Ages. 

He  spoke  of  the  English  literature  of  the 
nineteenth  century  as  "  quite  extraordi- 
nary." He  thought  this  strange,  "  because 
of  the  Elizabethan  outburst."  He  said  that 
there   had   been   practically  continuity,  and 

1  When  commenting  on  my  Recollections  of  Charles  Aus- 
tin,  Fitzjames  Stephen  applied  to  Austin's  ineffectual  life 
the  lament  of  Carlyle  :  "  Oh,  the  Bar,  the  Bar  !  I  look  on 
it  as  just  a  great  devouring  gulf  that  eats  up  all  the  sturdy 
fellows  that  might  help  us  in  our  sorrows." 

46 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

that  this  was  very  rare,  and  was,  moreover, 
a  great  disadvantage  to  living  poets.  No 
book  nowadays  produces  an  excitement  at 
all  equal  to  that  caused  by  Walter  Scott's 
novels.  The  nearest  approach  was  the  inter- 
est shown  in  Tennyson's  last  poems;  but 
this  was  not  at  all  equal  to  the  interest  awak- 
ened by  Scott. 

A  young  lady  present  sprung  a  mine  by 
saying  that  Scott  was  dull,  and  adding  that 
she  got  more  pleasure  from  Thackeray  and 
George  Eliot.  She  was  more  flattered  than 
provoked  by  the  half  angry  earnestness  with 
which  Mr.  Gladstone  said,  "  We  shall  never 
agree  about  novels."  The  young  lady  then 
said  that  she  would  recognise  Maggie  Tulliver 
if  she  spoke  to  her,  but  that  she  would  not 
recognise  one  of  Scott's  heroines.  Scott's 
queens  seemed  to  her,  like  a  child's  notions 
of  a  queen,  and  to  have  nothing  distinctive. 
"  What,  does  he  make  no  difference  between 
Queen  Mary  and  Queen  Elizabeth?"  he 
asked  indignantly.  She  inquired  what  mod- 
ern novels  he  admired.  He  replied  by  call- 
ing Mr.  Baring  Gould's  Mahalali  a  very 
powerful  novel ;  but  he  seemed  to  think 
that  novels  are  now  too  much  the  rage.  He 
spoke  of  the  late  Lord  de  Tabley  as  having 

47 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

written  good  poetry  which  is  not  read,  and 
bad  novels  which  are  read. 

We  went  on  to  discuss  the  general  ques- 
tion of  how  far  Scott's  heroes  and  heroines 
are  lifelike.  It  seemed  to  me  that  this  ques- 
tion could  be  illustrated  by  referring  to  the 
more  extreme  case  of  epic  and  tragic  heroes. 
For  example,  the  Homeric  ^Eneas,  after 
challenging  Achilles,  inflicted  on  him  a 
somewhat  irrelevant  versified  discourse;  and 
(stranger  still)  the  great  Achilles,  although 
in  a  hurry  to  kill  as  many  Trojans  as  pos- 
sible, listened  patiently  to  his  enemy's  tedi- 
ous harangue,  instead  of  vanquishing  him  at 
once.  So,  likewise,  Shakespeare  represents 
Prince  Arthur,  after  taking  his  fatal  leap 
from  the  Tower,  as  breathing  out  his  soul 
in  a  rhyming  couplet.  In  view  of  such  in- 
stances of  untimely  versification,  one  was 
tempted  jocularly  to  say  that  the  heroes  of 
poetry  combined  the  eccentricities  of  mos- 
quitoes and  of  swans:  they  sing  before  they 
molest,  and  they  sing  before  they  die  !  Seri- 
ously, if  those  inopportunely  poetical  heroes 
are  called  natural  and  lifelike,  what  poetical 
heroes  can  be  called  unnatural?  Do  not 
these  considerations  apply  literally  to  the 
heroes  of  Scott's  poems?  and  do  not  similar 

48 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

considerations  apply,  though  of  course  in  a 
far  less  degree,  to  the  somewhat  rhetorical 
and  tall-talking  heroes  and  heroines  of 
Scott's  novels? 

Mr.  Gladstone's  reply  was,  in  effect,  that 
Scott's  writings  are  in  "  the  grand  style." 
He  compared  them  to  the  paintings  of 
Raphael  and  of  the  Old  Masters  generally; 
and  he  went  on  to  say  that  the  pictures  of 
the  Royal  Academy  recall  more  exactly  the 
men  and  women  in  modern  novels  and  life. 
He  added  that  you  have  no  right  to  like  a 
book  better  because  you  are  in  sympathy 
with  it ;  on  that  principle,  you  would  prefer 
the  Royal  Academy  to  the  National  Gallery. 
He  might  have  gone  a  step  further.  "  I 
know  nothing  of  painting,  and  detest  it," 
writes  Byron,  "  unless  it  reminds  me  of 
something  I  have  seen  or  think  it  possible 
to  see."  Probably  the  great  majority  of  the 
persons  who  saunter  through  picture  galleries 
would,  if  they  had  Bryon's  candour,  avow 
that  they  share  his  sentiments.  These  for- 
malists and  art-pretenders,  while  they  feel 
bound  (as  the  phrase  is)  to  "  do  "  the  Na- 
tional Gallery,  really  derive  more  pleasure 
from  the  Royal  Academy;  and,  mutatis 
mutandis,  they  correspond  to  the  startlingly 
4  49 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

large  class  of  readers  who  prefer  novels 
descriptive  of  common  life  to  the  novels  of 
Scott. 

Mr.  Gladstone  was  evidently  not  well  up 
in  Browning;  but  he  said  that  it  was  plain 
that  Browning  must  be  a  remarkable  man: 
he  had  got  hold  of  the  reading  public;  the 
existence  of  Browning  Societies  showed  how 
much  trouble  people  would  take  to  learn 
the  "grammar"  of  his  language.  Passing 
on  to  Mr.  George  Meredith,  he  said  that  one 
of  his  daughters  had  made  him  begin  Diana 
of  the  Crossways ;  but  he  evidently  stuck 
in  it. 

He  thought  that  Scott  was  the  greatest 
delineator  of  human  character  next  to  Homer 
and  Shakespeare.  He  remarked  that  in 
Italy  there  had  been  a  revival  of  poetry  in 
Leopardi  and  others. 

He  maintained  that  there  was  a  want  of 
"  harmony  "  in  George  Eliot's  novels:  "  she 
makes  such  absurd  people  marry  one  an- 
other. Why  did  Adam  Bede  marry  Dinah  ? ' ' 
Is  it,  one  cannot  but  ask,  an  objection  to  a 
novel  that  it  makes  the  wrong  people  marry? 
If  it  is,  does  not  the  objection  apply  as  much 
to  Kenilworth  or  The  Bride  of  Lammermoor 
as  to  Adam  Bede?     Surely  in  all  such  cases 

5° 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  novelist  is  simply  realistic.  He  is  seek- 
ing to  embody  in  fiction  the  Horatian  senti- 
ment which  is  only  too  often  justified  by 
experience — 

"Sic  visum  Veneri,  cui  placet  impares 
Formas  atque  animos  sub  juga  aenea 
Sasvo  mittere  cum  joco."  ' 

After  talking  of  American  novelists  and 
contrasting  them  with  Scott,  Mr.  Gladstone 
said  that  an  American  had  declared  that  he 
did  not  suppose  that  there  were  ten  men  in 
Boston  equal  to  Shakespeare.  This  reminds 
me  that  I  was  once  assured  by  an  old  Indian 
judge  that  he  had  himself  heard  a  Baboo 
student  ingenuously  declare  that  he  had 
been  reading  Shakespeare  and  Milton,  and 
hoped  soon  to  produce  a  poem  which  would 
combine  the  merits  of  both ! 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  mention  some 

curious  "  survivals."     In  Yorkshire  are  two 

places,     Boston    and    Appleton,    called     by 

people   on   the   other  side  of  a  ridge  Bosby 

and  Appleby.      In  the  same  neighbourhood 

the  same  family  was  called  indiscriminately 

" — ton"  and" — by."     He  regarded  this  as 

1 "  Thus  it  hath  seemed  good  to  Venus,  who  loveth  with 
cruel  jest  unequally  to  yoke  together  forms  and  minds  un- 
meet." 

51 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

a  survival  of  an  old  state  of  things.  He 
spoke  of  an  odd  tenure  in  land  in  the  High- 
lands, the  land  not  being  held  in  common, 
but  divided  periodically,  he  thought  annu- 
ally. 

Referring  to  a  report  in  the  newspapers 
that  the  Comte  de  Paris  acquiesced  in  the 
Republic,  he  said  he  was  glad  of  it.  A 
few  years  ago  especially,  when  there  were 
so  many  claimants  to  the  French  throne, 
the  conduct  of  those  claimants  was  "  not 
mischievous  merely,  but  ridiculous."  He 
thought  that  the  Franco-German  War  was 
almost  entirely  the  act  of  the  Emperor. 
The  heads  of  departments  had  been  asked 
about  the  general  feeling  in  their  own  dis- 
tricts, and  had  in  almost  each  instance  an- 
swered that  it  was  unfavourable  to  war;  and 
even  in  the  exceptional  instances  the  feeling 
for  war  was  described  as  lukewarm.  One  of 
the  guests  rejoined  that  he  himself  had  been 
in  Paris  when  the  war  was  declared,  and  that 
then  the  feeling  for  it  seemed  to  be  very 
strong.  Mr.  Gladstone  replied  that  Paris 
no  doubt  was  more  warlike  than  the  prov- 
inces, but  that  it  was  very  easy  for  the  Gov- 
ernment to  excite  a  seeming  enthusiasm. 
He  referred  to  a  caricature  which  appeared 

52 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

at  the  time,  and  which  represented  the 
words  "  Ferme  jusqu'  a  la  prise  de  Berlin  " 
as  written  over  the  shop  of  a  cobbler  who 
had  opposed  the  war.  I  asked  about  plebi- 
scites. He  replied:  "  The  plebiscite  was  a 
mere  imposture,  an  enemy  to  liberty.  No 
alternative  to  the  Empire  was  proposed ;  so 
that  those  who  voted  for  the  Empire  were 
choosing  between  it  and  anarchy." 

I  asked  about  the  unpopularity  of  the 
Emperor  Frederick  and  the  Empress.  He 
said  that  she  tried  too  ostentatiously  to 
Anglicise  Germany;  and  that  Frederick, 
during  his  three  months,  had  not  time  to 
accustom  the  Germans  to  a  complete  change 
of  policy.  Mr.  Gladstone  knew  from  ex- 
perience how  little  can  be  done  in  three 
months.  He  added  that  the  Germans  have 
had  no  history  of  their  own  for  a  long  time, 
and  this  makes  them  extra-sensitive  about 
foreign  innovations.  Might  not  this  argu- 
ment of  his  be  turned  the  other  way?  Would 
not  a  nation  with  a  satisfactory  history  have 
at  least  as  good  a  cause  to  complain  of  im- 
ported institutions? 

I  spoke  of  the  unexpectedly  friendly  atti- 
tude which  had  recently  been  adopted  by 
the  young  Emperor  towards  England.     Mr. 

53 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Gladstone  seemed  not  over  confident  about 
this.      I  asked  about  the  fall  of  Bismarck. 

Gladstone. — "  According  to  English  no- 
tions, Bismarck  was  clearly  wrong;  he  in- 
sisted on  his  subordinates  not  communicating 
with  the  Emperor,  except  through  him." 

Tollemache. — "  Would  it  make  much  dif- 
ference in  England  if  this  were  done?" 

G. — "  Immense;  but  I  find  it  difficult  to 
give  the  reason.  The  working  of  the  English 
Cabinet  can  hardly  be  understood  ab  extra. 
It  grew  by  degrees,  and  its  history  is  unre- 
corded. The  best  account  of  it  is  in  Morley's 
monograph  on  Sir  Robert  Walpole. " 

He  explained  that  he  did  not  mean  that 
the  subordinate  Ministers  could  appeal  to 
the  Crown  against  the  Prime  Minister.  If 
they  differed  from  him,  of  course  they  would 
have  to  resign;  but,  in  the  ordinary  dis- 
charge of  their  official  duties,  they  could  not 
be  expected  to  submit  all  despatches  to  him. 
He  said  that  in  the  Life  of  the  Prince  Consort 
a  great  exception  is  recorded.  He  thought 
that  this  occurred  in  185 1.  Lord  John  Rus- 
sell, then  Prime  Minister,  insisted  on  seeing 
Lord  Palmerston's  despatches.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone regretted  that  he  had  never  cross-ques- 
tioned  Lord  John   about  this.     Lord  John 

54 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

was  well  up  in  constitutional  law  and  cus- 
tom ;  and  Mr.  Gladstone  supposed  that  he 
meant  his  conduct  to  be  regarded  as  entirely 
exceptional  and  pro  re  nata.  I  asked  him 
what  he  thought  of  Lord  Palmerston  as  a 
speaker. 

G. — "  He  had  a  happy  faculty  of  making 
his  words  exactly  fit  his  meaning.  This 
does  not  sound  a  very  uncommon  thing; 
but  it  really  is  so.  People  are  apt  to  say 
more  than  they  mean.  Parnell  is  another 
striking  instance  of  the  same  guardedness 
of  expression." 

T. — "  My  father  was  much  struck  by  the 
speaking  of  Mr.  Lowe." 

G. — "  In  1866  Lowe  was  quite  at  the  top 
of  the  tree." 

January  2nd,  1892. — Mr.  and  Mrs.  Glad- 
stone dined  with  us. 

I  said  the  old  grace,  Benedictus  benedicat, 
and  added  that  Charles  Austin  used  always 
to  say  it.  Mr.  Gladstone  remarked  that  it 
was  adopted  in  the  Nonconformist  College 
at  Oxford.  He  expressed  great  satisfaction 
at  there  being  such  a  College,  or  rather  two 
such ;  and  he  wished  there  was  a  Roman 
Catholic  one.     He  said  that  Newman  and 

55 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  more  liberal  Catholics  wished  for 
one. 

He  regarded  the  reputed  Editor  of  the 
Spectator  (Mr.  Hutton)  as  being,  at  least 
since  Matthew  Arnold's  death,  the  first  of 
our  critics.  Since  his  own  policy  had  been 
each  week  attacked  in  the  Spectator,  he  had 
left  off  taking  it  in.  He  said  that  this  was 
due  to  his  great  regard  for  the  Editor:  "  I 
found  that  reading  those  weekly  attacks 
tended,  to  use  a  vulgar  term,  to  establish  a 
raw." 

I  told  the  story  that  Matthew  Arnold, 
when  asked  what  he  thought  of  Robert  Els- 
mere,  replied,  "  No  Arnold  could  ever  write 
a  novel.  Otherwise  I  should  have  written 
one! 

G. — "  I  have  been  told  that  Arnold  did 
not  consider  that  Robert  Elsmere  went  far 
enough." 

T. — "  Arnold's  theology,  I  should  say, 
was  more  negative  than  Robert  Elsmere's. 
But  he  clung  to  the  Church  as  the  symbol 
of  his  spiritual  life;  he  was  less  of  a  Theist, 
but  more  of  a  Christian.  He  was  a  Neo- 
Christian,  or  rather  a  Neo-Anglican." 

G.— "  I  understand  that  Matthew  Arnold 
considered  himself  so  far  an  Anglican  so  to 

56 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

take  part  in  the  discussions  in  Sion  Col- 
lege." 

T. — "  I  know  that  he  used  to  take  the 
Sacrament." 

Being  asked  what  he  thought  of  Lord 
Rosebery's  Life  of  Pitt,  he  said  that  he 
agreed  with  the  first  part  of  that  work,  but 
not  with  the  second.  He  considered  him- 
self a  Pittite  in  regard  to  the  first  part  of 
Pitt's  career,  but  a  Foxite  in  regard  to  the 
second  part. 

I  expressed  some  surprise  at  Lord  Hol- 
land's having  protested  against  Napoleon's 
being  sent  to  St.  Helena. 

G. — "  I  believe  that  Napoleon  narrowly 
escaped  being  shot,  and  I  understand  that 
Wellington  was  in  favour  of  his  execution. 
But  I  am  glad  that  his  life  was  spared." 

T. — "  I  believe  that  this  was  also  the  wish 
of  Bliicher.  How  was  it  that,  if  the  two 
generals  were  thus  agreed,  Napoleon  es- 
caped? " 

G. — "  The  Emperor  of  Austria  was  nat- 
urally opposed  to  the  execution  of  his  own 
son-in-law;  and  I  believe  that,  in  spite  of 
all  that  Russia  had  suffered,  the  Czar  was 
of  the  same  mind." 

T. — "  Charles    Austin    would    not    have 

57 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

minded  if  Napoleon  had  been  shot  after 
Waterloo.  The  bloodshed  after  the  return 
from  Elba  was  more  due  to  Napoleon  than 
to  Ney  or  Laboudoyere." 

G. — "  I  am  not  defending  the  execution 
of  Ney.  At  the  same  time,  I  think  that 
much  might  have  been  urged  in  favour 
of  Austin's  view.  But  the  evils  of  the 
French  Revolution,  and  even  of  the  First 
Empire,  should  in  great  part  be  laid  to 
the  account  of  Louis  XIV.  and  XV.,  and 
even  of  Richelieu.  These  destroyed  the 
sense  of  duty  and  of  public  spirit  among 
Frenchmen.  The  Terrorists  were  merely 
the  funguses  which  sprung  up  in  the  cor- 
rupt soil." 

In  regard  to  this  reasoning  I  am  tempted 
to  object  that,  if  it  may  be  pleaded  in  excuse 
for  Robespierre  and  Napoleon  that  their 
misdemeanours  were  in  some  sort  the  out- 
come of  previous  conditions,  may  not  the 
same  plea  be  urged  on  behalf  of  Richelieu 
and  the  Bourbons?  In  fact,  the  shield  of 
Philosophical  Necessity  should  be  cast  over 
everyone,  or  over  no  one.  Especially  should 
we  bear  in  mind  that  the  tyrannical  acts  of 
rulers  bear  some  sort  of  relation  to  the 
passivity  of  the  masses.     The  guilt  of  Pha- 

58 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

laris,  when  he  roasted  shipwrecked  mariners 
alive  in  his  sonorous  bull,  was  to  some  degree 
shared  by  his  subjects,  who  tolerated,  if  they 
did  not  enjoy,  the  pastime  of  the  vpLvoi 
avjuvoav,  of  the  hideous  melody  of  murder. 
A  less  extreme  example  of  the  solidarity 
that  subsists  between  rulers  and  ruled  is  well 
indicated  by  Cassius  in  Julius  Ccesar — 

"  And  why  should  Caesar  be  a  tyrant  then  ? 
Poor  man  !  I  know  he  would  not  be  a  wolf, 
But  that  he  sees  the  Romans  are  but  sheep  : 
He  were  no  lion,  were  not  the  Romans  hinds." 

G. — "  Napoleon  at  St.  Helena  used  to 
protest  against  being  compared  with  Crom- 
well ;  he  used  to  say  that  he  had  not  cut  off 
his  king's  head,  but  had  merely  appeared 
as  the  Saviour  of  Society.  Well,  it  was  the 
Allied  Powers,  and  especially  the  English, 
who,  by  making  war  on  the  French,  frus- 
trated every  attempt  of  the  Republic  to  set 
up  a  durable  Government.  And  in  the 
meantime  the  English  labourer  was  impover- 
ished. In  1812  he  was  ten  times  worse  off 
than  he  now  is.  He  received  only  half  his 
present  wages,  and  he  had  to  pay  five  times 
as  much  for  bread.  At  one  time  corn  rose 
to  2 is.  a  bushel;  while  now,  or  at  least  dur- 

59 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

ing  the  past  few  years,  and  until  quite  lately, 
he  had  only  to  pay  4s.  a  bushel." 

Mr.  Gladstone  urged  me  to  read  the 
Memoirs  of  Marbot,  who  had  unusual  oppor- 
tunities of  seeing  Napoleon  at  close  quarters. 
He  admitted,  indeed,  that  Marbot  some- 
times drew  the  long-bow,  as  when  he  de- 
scribed himself  as  more  than  a  match  for 
three  Englishmen.  I  compared  this  with 
the  complete  victory  won  by  three  French- 
men over  three  Englishmen  in  Les  trois 
Mousqnetaires.  Mr.  Gladstone  more  appro- 
priately contrasted  it  with  the  assertion  in 
Henry  V.,  that  one  Englishman  is  a  match 
for  three  Frenchmen.  Charles  Kean  had 
told  him  that,  before  Magenta  and  Solferino, 
the  gallery  always  clapped  this  passage. 
After  those  French  victories  the  clapping 
ceased.  Mr.  Gladstone  quoted  this  as  speak- 
ing well  for  the  good  sense  and  fairness  of 
the  English  people. 

Is  there  anything  to  be  urged  on  the  oppo- 
site side  of  the  question?  At  any  rate,  I 
am  tempted  to  supplement  Mr.  Gladstone's 
view  by  quoting,  for  what  it  is  worth,  an 
extract  from  one  of  Chesterfield's  Letters: 
"  That  silly,  sanguine  notion,  which  is  firmly 
entertained  here,  that  one  Englishman  can 

60 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

beat  three  Frenchmen,  encourages,  and  has 
sometimes  enabled, one  Englishman  in  reality 
to  beat  two." 

The  conversation  passed  on  to  English 
politics  and  lawyers. 

f. — "  My  uncle,  Lord  Mount  Temple,  used 
to  tell  me  that  lawyers  generally  fail  in  Parlia- 
ment.    Was  not  Cockburn  an  exception?' 

G. — "  Cockburn's  reputation  in  Parlia- 
ment was  founded  on  a  single  speech,  in 
defence  of  Lord  Palmerston.  Take  the  case 
of  another  great  lawyer.  Sir  George  Jessel 
discussed  legal  questions  with  beautiful  clear- 
ness, but  became  a  mere  partizan  when  dis- 
cussing politics." 

T. — "  Lord  Lansdowne  once  told  Charles 
Austin  that  he  thought  Bright,  as  an  orator, 
fully  equal  to  Charles  Fox."  This  seemed 
to  surprise  Mr.  Gladstone.  I  referred  to 
Sheridan's"  Begum  Speech"  as  having  been 

ill  reported. 

£. — "  The  speeches  in  Parliament  are  ill 
reported  even  now.  Questions  asked  before 
debate  are  accurately  given ;  but,  as  for  the 
rest,  I  can  only  apply  to  the  reports  what 
Kingsley  said  to  the  friend  who  consulted 
him  about  his  poems,  '  They  are  not  good, 
but  bad. '     This  is  creditable  to  the  reporters 

61 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

as  men."  He  apparently  meant  that  the 
reporters  thus  show  that  they  take  a  human 
interest  in  what  they  hear  and  write. 

G. — "  The  very  same  reporters  would  do 
their  work  much  better  in  the  country.  It 
takes  me  twice  as  long  to  correct  a  speech 
in  Parliament  as  to  correct  one  of  equal 
length  in  the  country."  He  even  com- 
plained of  the  accuracy  of  the  reports  of 
speeches  in  the  Times;  but  other  M.P. 's 
have  spoken  to  me  far  more  favourably  of 
these  reports  in  the  Times.  They  think 
that  Mr.  Gladstone's  difficulty  in  getting 
his  speeches  well  reported,  arose  from  the 
fact  that  at  this  time  of  his  life  he  had, 
except  when  strongly  excited,  lost  somewhat 
of  his  clear  articulation. 

G. — "  Canning's  speeches,  as  published  in 
their  collected  form,  are  very  different  from 
what  they  were  as  originally  reported." 

I  asked  him  if  he  had  heard  Canning's 
famous  speech  which  was  delivered  in  1826, 
when  the  independence  of  the  Spanish  Colo- 
nies in  the  West  was  acknowledged  by  Great 
Britain,  and  which  contained  the  exultant 
phrase,  "  I  called  the  New  World  into  ex- 
istence to  redress  the  balance  of  the  Old." 

G. — "  No.     I  did   not  hear  that  speech; 

62 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

but  I  heard  two  earlier  ones.  One  was  at 
Liverpool  in  1822.  It  was  called  the  '  Red 
Lion  '  speech.  In  this  speech  Canning  satir- 
ised those  who  made  reform  a  panacea,  by 
comparing  them  to  the  painter  who  could 
paint  nothing  but  red  lions.  In  boudoirs 
small  red  lions  were  painted,  in  drawing- 
rooms  bigger  ones.  Personally,  I  feel  some 
sympathy  with  the  people  thus  satirised. 
Another  speech  of  Canning  which  I  heard, 
contained  a  prediction  of  the  future  great- 
ness of  Lord  John  Russell ;  it  was  (in  effect): 
I  doubt  not  that  the  noble  lord  will  become 
great,  and  that  his  principles  will  triumph ; 
but,  for  myself,  I  am  proud  to  be  on  the 
losing  side.'  " 

I  quoted  Victrix  causa  deis  placuit,  sed 
victa  Catoni,  and  might  more  appropriately 
have  quoted  the  exclamation  of  Brutus  after 
the  battle  of  Philippi — 

"  I  shall  have  glory  by  this  losing  day, 
More  than  Octavius  and  Mark  Antony 
By  this  vile  conquest  shall  attain  unto."' 

I I  am  sorry  that  I  did  not  repeat,  in  this  relation,  the 
lines  from  Addison's  Cato,  which  Mr.  Gladstone's  hero, 
Sir  Walter  Scott,  when  taking  up  ineffectual  arms  against 
a  sea  of  troubles,  manfully  applied  to  himself — 

"  'Tis  not  in  mortals  to  command  success, 
But  we'll  do  more,  Sempronius,  we'll  deserve  it." 

63 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Mr.  Gladstone  spoke  of  Bethel  and  New- 
man as  the  two  most  subtle  masters  of  Eng- 
lish prose  of  our  time.  He  said  that,  in 
the  affair  of  Sir  John  Bowring,  the  Govern- 
ment consulted  its  law  officers  as  to  Sir 
John's  conduct  towards  China.  Wortley, 
the  Solicitor-General,  seemed  to  think  the 
case  doubtful;  but  Bethel  declared  that  Sir 
John  had  not  a  leg  to  stand  upon.  After- 
wards he  was  called  upon  in  Parliament  to 
defend  the  Government,  and  so  acute  an 
observer  as  Sir  Erskine  May  expressed  an 
opinion  that  he  had  made  out  a  strong  case. 

I  remarked  that  the  view  taken  of  Lord 
Lyndhurst  by  Miss  Martineau  and  Walter 
Bagehot  was  anything  but  flattering;  and  I 
mentioned  the  incident  which  was  afterwards 
recorded  in  my  article  called  "  Lord  Tolle- 
mache  and  his  Anecdotes. "  "  Charles  Aus- 
tin related  a  fact  illustrative  of  the  bitter 
indignation  which  prevailed  among  the 
Whigs  when  Copley,  like  another  Strafford, 
suddenly  '  ratted '  and  turned  Tory.  So 
extreme  was  this  resentment  that  Denman 
told  his  servant  that,  if  his  old  friend  called, 
he  was  not  to  be  admitted.  In  spite  of  the 
servant,  the  future  Lord  Lyndhurst  made 
his  way  to  the  door  of  Denman's  chambers, 

64 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  shouted  from  outside,  '  Let  me  at  least 
beg  that,  if  you  are  asked  about  my  change 
of  opinions,  you  will  say  that  it  was  honest.' 
If  I  am  asked  about  your  change  of  opin- 
ions,' was  the  reply  from  within,  '  I  will  say 
that  you  say  it  was  honest.'  "  ! 

Mr.  Gladstone  cautiously  replied  that  Lord 
Lyndhurst  was  something  of  a  statesman, 
and  that  he  understood  that  his  legal  deci- 
sions carried  weight. 

T.—"  My  father  told  me  that  he  had 
heard  Peel  speak  with  high  praise  of  what 
he  termed  Cobden's  '  unadorned  elo- 
quence.' 2  I  only  once  heard  Cobden  speak, 
and  he  seemed  to  me  then  to  be  very  want- 
ing in  fluency;  he  could  not  hit  upon  the 
right  word.  But  this  was  shortly  before  he 
died ;  and  my  father  afterwards  told  me  that 
he  had  never  before  known  him  to  be  so 
unsuccessful." 

G. — "  I  never  knew  Cobden  pause  for  a 

1  Fort  flight  ly  Review,  July  1892,  p.  74. 

*  The  classical  reader  will  be  reminded  of  the  praise 
bestowed  by  Cicero  on  Csesar's  eloquence,  which  he  de- 
scribes as  bare  of  all  ornament,  like  an  undraped  human 
figure  {tanquam  vesle  detractd).  I  am  tempted  to  quote 
in  this  place  the  actual  words  employed  by  Peel  about 
Cobden's  eloquence  :  "It  is  the  more  to  be  admired  be- 
cause it  is  unaffected  and  unadorned." 
5  65 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

word;  it  must  have  been  most  exceptional. 
But  he  was  wanting  in  quickness  of  percep- 
tion. I  remember  his  making  a  speech 
shortly  before  the  Repeal  of  the  Corn  Laws ; 
and  on  that  occasion  Peel,  who  seldom  be- 
stowed high  praise,  muttered,  '  This  is  ad- 
mirable.' But  in  this  very  speech  Cobden 
went  on  to  make  use  of  a  very  unfortunate 
illustration:  '  My  honourable  friend,  the 
member  for  Rochdale,  manufactures  long 
yarns  at  a  low  price ! '  " 

We  talked  about  Bright;  and  I  mentioned 
that  I  had  heard  his  very  fine  speech  at  the 
dinner  given  to  Mr.  Garrison  after  the  conclu- 
sion of  the  American  Civil  War.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone rejoined  that  Bright  approved  of  the 
American  War,  and  seemingly  of  that  war 
only.  Bright  had  seen  that,  although  the 
Northern  States  were  not  in  the  first  instance 
consciously  fighting  against  slavery,  the 
practical  result  of  the  war  would  be  to  abol- 
ish slavery;  and  he  had  seen  this  when 
hardly  anyone  else  did. 

T. — "  Do  you  suppose  that  the  condition 
of  the  slaves  was  as  bad  as  might  be  gath- 
ered from  Uncle  Tom's  Cabin?' 

G. — "  So  far  as  physical  suffering  is  con- 
cerned,   I   think  the  picture   is  too  darkly 

66 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

coloured.  Mrs.  Beecher  Stowe  has  com- 
bined all  the  worst  details  which  were  re- 
ported in  various  quarters.  I  will  not  say 
that  she  was  morally  to  blame  for  this  ex- 
aggeration ;  it  was  probably  necessary  for 
artistic  effect.  But  I  hold  the  great  evil  of 
slavery  to  have  been,  not  physical  suffering, 
but  moral  debasement.  It  degrades  God's 
human  creatures  below  the  human  level. "  He 
also  spoke  of  the  bad  effect  on  the  masters, 
who  were  sinking  lower  and  lower.  I  men- 
tioned Chief  Justice  Shea,  U.S.A.,  as  having 
told  me  that  the  negroes  are  now  becoming 
more  and  more  helpless.  Mr.  Gladstone, 
after  earnestly  recapitulating  the  chief  evils 
of  slavery,  such  as  the  separation  of  families, 
etc.,  said  that  there  was  no  doubt  that  it 
furnished  some  beautiful  examples  of  faith- 
ful devotion.  He  confirmed  the  Chief  Jus- 
tice's opinion  as  to  the  present  condition  of 
the  negroes,  by  the  example  of  San  Do- 
mingo, where  they  are  reported  (he  believed 
on  good  authority)  to  be  sinking  into  brutal 
idolatry,  and  even  cannibalism.  He  said 
that  evidence  bearing  in  the  same  direction 
had  been  given  him  by  a  coloured  President 
of  the  Liberian  Republic.  I  reminded  him 
that,  twenty-eight  years  before,  he  had  told 

67 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

me  of  some  coloured  man  who  had  struck 
him,  not  merely  by  his  intelligence,  but  also 
by  his  refined  manners.  He  replied  that 
this  was  probably  the  very  man.  He  then 
suddenly  looked  startled,  and  exclaimed, 
"  A  formidable  memory!  "  He  went  on  to 
ask  whether  it  was  "  a  naturally  strong 
memory  which  had  been  hardened  and  stimu- 
lated by  practice."  I  compared  it  to  a 
strong  current  which  is  made  stronger  by 
being  forced  to  run  in  a  narrow  channel. 
My  eyesight,  I  explained,  limits  the  range 
of  my  reading,  and  cuts  me  off  from  the 
newspapers,  and  from  many  sources  of  ob- 
servation. Thus  my  memory  is  concen- 
trated upon  a  few  subjects. 

G. — "  Archbishop  Benson  remarked  to  me 
in  conversation,  that  most  men's  memories 
are  much  impaired  by  the  daily  practice  of 
reading  the  newspapers,  and  of  skimming 
over  a  variety  of  unconnected  subjects." 

I  asked  him  whether  it  was  true  that  he 
ascribed  his  own  good  health  to  the  practice 
of  masticating  his  food  twenty  times.  He 
said  that,  when  his  children  were  young,  he 
told  them  that,  when  eating,  they  should 
think  of  four  bars  of  common  time  written 
in  quavers;    by  which,  as  he  explained  to 

68 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

my  unmusical  ear,  he  meant  that  they  were 
to  bite  each  mouthful  thirty-two  times;  but 
he  looked  upon  this  as  a  counsel  of  perfec- 
tion. He  ate  very  slowly.  I  was  surprised 
by  this,  as  he  talked  so  much.  Montaigne, 
who  never  reached  old  age,  had  to  increase 
mastication  when  he  had  passed  middle  life, 
and  found  it  a  bar  to  talking. 

Mr.  Gladstone  added  that  he  had  other 
rules  for  the  preservation  of  health.  He 
felt  the  importance  of  Sunday  rest.  I  asked, 
Did  he  get  rest  in  listening  to  long  sermons? 
He  interrupted,  "  They  are  not  often  long 
now;  but  I  do  not  like  to  hear  more  than 
one  sermon  which  makes  me  think."  He 
also  found  that  a  change  of  subjects  was 
rest.  He  had  acquired  the  power  of  keep- 
ing his  mind  off  politics  after  he  was  in  bed. 
When  Bright  was  ill,  he  mentioned  this  to 
him.  Bright  rejoined,  "  This  is  just  when 
I  think  of  my  speeches."  He  said  that 
Bright's  imprudence  about  health  had  been 
"abominable!"  He  thought  that  men  of 
active  minds  and  of  a  certain  age  would  do 
well  to  consult  some  first-rate  London  doctor 
by  way  of  taking  preventive  measures:  "  I 
do  not  say  any  doctor  in  particular;  but  let 
it   be  a  first-rate  one."     I  cross-questioned 

69 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

him  further  about  Bright.  He  told  me  that 
Andrew  Clarke,  when  Bright  went  to  con- 
sult him,  asked,  "  To  what  do  I  owe  the 
honour  of  seeing  you?"  Bright  answered, 
'  Mr.  Gladstone  made  me  come.  He  would 
give  me  no  peace."  After  consulting  An- 
drew Clarke,  he  had  no  more  of  his  nervous 
attacks.  Mr.  Gladstone  added  that  he  him- 
self, under  orders,  had  given  up  bitter  beer, 
which  he  called  a  "divine  drink'  (deiov 
norov). 

I  asked  about  Dizzy,  and  quoted  this 
phrase,  once  used  by  him  about  the  Liberal 
leaders  when  their  Government  had  been 
beaten  :  "  I  see  before  me  a  range  of  extinct 
volcanoes."  * 

G. — "  Dizzy  did  not  show  at  his  best  dur- 
ing the  last  twenty  years  of  his  life.      But  he 

1  I  reported  this  incident  to  Mr.  Gladstone  as  it  had  been 
told  to  me  by  a  living  statesman,  who,  I  understood,  had 
been  present.  Hay  ward  gives  a  different  account  of  it. 
He  quotes  the  following  extract  from  a  speech  delivered 
by  Disraeli  at  Manchester  :  "  As  I  sat  opposite  the  Treas- 
ury bench,  the  Ministers  reminded  me  of  one  of  those 
marine  landscapes  not  very  unusual  on  the  coasts  of  South 
America.  You  behold  a  range  of  exhausted  volcanoes. 
Not  a  flame  flickers  on  a  single  pallid  crest.  But  the  situa- 
tion is  still  dangerous.  There  are  occasional  earthquakes, 
and  ever  and  anon  the  dark  rumbling  of  the  sea."  Can 
Dizzy  have  used  this  metaphor  twice  ? 

7° 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

showed  great  ability  when  attacking  Peel. 
Mind,  I  am  not  weighing  his  sayings  in  the 
moral  scales ;  but  they  certainly  showed 
great  ability." 

T. — "  I  understand  that  Sheil  spoke  of 
the  falling  off  of  Disraeli's  eloquence  after 
Peel's  death,  and  compared  him  to  a  dissect- 
ing surgeon  without  a  corpse." 

G. — "  I  will  give  one  or  two  examples  of 
his  witty  attacks  on  Peel.  Speaking  of  the 
Maynooth  Grant,  he  said  of  Peel:  '  To  what 
end  is  it  that  he  thus  convulses  the  country? 
That  the  Maynooth  students  may  lie  two  in 
a  bed  instead  of  lying  three  in  a  bed.' !  I 
will  not  deny  that  Maynooth  was  pauperised. 
But  I  will  pass  on  to  another  example:  Dis- 
raeli charged  Peel  with  tracing  the  steam- 
engine  back  to  the  tea-kettle  !  " 

I  suppose  that  by  this  illustration  Dizzy 
meant  that  Peel  was  too  much  in  the  habit 
of  discussing  political  questions  on  first 
principles. 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  express  surprise 
that  the  steam-engine  was  so  long  in  being 

1  Can  Dizzy,  when  he  used  this  metaphor,  have  been 
thinking  of  the  son  of  the  Vicar  of  Wakefield,  who,  being 
fain  to  embark  on  a  tutorial  career,  was  advertised  of 
divers  inconveniences  of  usherdom  ?  "  '  Can  you  lie  three 
in  a  bed  ? '     '  No  !  '      '  Then  you  won't  do  for  a  school.'  " 

71 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

invented.  I  found  that  he  did  not  know 
that  there  was  a  toy  steam-engine  in  the 
Alexandrine  Museum.  He  asked  its  date. 
I  looked  the  question  up,  and  afterwards 
informed  him  that  Hero  of  Alexandria,  in 
his  Pnenmatica  (B.C.  130),  says  that  he  in- 
vented a  steam  apparatus  for  opening  and 
shutting  the  great  doors  of  a  temple,  and  a 
toy  globe  which  revolved  by  reaction  from 
escaping  steam. 

He  wanted  to  ask  me  about  Butler,  but 
remarked,  with  a  smile,  "  I  fear  that  the  time 
is  short,  as  the  question  comprises  the  whole 
of  conduct.  I  don't  wish  to  speak  disre- 
spectfully of  a  great  critic;  but,  when  Mat- 
thew Arnold  speaks  of  conduct  as  comprising 
75  per  cent,  of  life,  he  seems  to  me  to  have 
spoken  sheer  nonsense." 

T. — "  Surely  he  did  not  intend  it  to  be 
taken  quite  seriously." 

G. — "  Probably  not;  but,  if  he  had  not 
meant  something,  he  would  hardly  have 
said  it. 

T. — "  Do  you  mean  that,  in  assigning 
three-quarters  of  life  to  conduct,  he  assigned 
too  much  or  too  little?" 

G. — "  Too  little.  Conduct  comprises  the 
whole  of  life." 

72 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

T. — "  He  divides  the  other  quarter  of  life 
between  Science  and  Art.  Surely,  there- 
fore, when  speaking  of  conduct,  he  uses  the 
word  in  a  technical  sense  as  equivalent  to 
moral  conduct ;  he  is  referring  to  le  bien  as 
opposed  to  le  beau  and  le  vrai. 

Mr.  Gladstone  said  that  this  was  probably 
so;  but  he  did  not  seem  satisfied.  He  com- 
plained of  my  having  spoken  in  Stones  of 
Stumbling  of  Nature  as  being  neither  moral 
nor  immoral,  but  "  outside  morality";  and 
asked  how  I  applied  this  to  the  formation  of 
good  and  bad  habits.  I  said  that  the  nat- 
ural capacity  of  forming  good  habits,  and 
the  advantage  resulting  from  their  formation, 
may  have  been  what  Matthew  Arnold  had 
in  view  when  he  defined  God  as  "  the  Eter- 
nal, not  ourselves,  that  makes  for  righteous- 
ness." Mr.  Gladstone  seemed  to  dissent 
from  that  definition.  Returning  to  the  ob- 
jection which  he  had  made  to  my  statement, 
that  Nature  is  non-moral,  I  quoted  Horace's 
well-known  lines  to  the  effect  that  piety 
grants  no  delay  to  wrinkles  and  old  age.  I 
insisted  that,  in  regard  to  such  visitations  as 
earthquakes,  and  indeed  to  all  agencies  lying 
beyond  human  control,  Nature  is  callously 
impartial  in  her  treatment  of  good  and  bad 

73 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

men.  The  readers  of  the  Record  are,  on  an 
average,  a  more  pious  and  praying  class  than 
the  readers  of  the  Times;  and  yet,  after 
carefully  studying  the  advertisements  in 
these  two  journals,  Mr.  Francis  Galton  has 
discovered  that  the  proportion  of  still  births 
to  ordinary  births  announced  in  the  two  jour- 
nals is  exactly  the  same;  which  is  the  more 
noteworthy  as  expectant  mothers,  in  pro- 
portion as  they  are  religious,  are  wont  to 
be  especially  diligent  in  praying  that  their 
offspring  may  live.  Mr.  Gladstone's  answer 
to  me  was  on  this  wise:  "  Notwithstanding 
the  apparently  irregular  distribution  of  tem- 
poral goods  in  this  world,  it  is,  I  suppose, 
undeniable  that  godliness  hath  the  promise 
of  the  life  that  now  is,  so  far  at  least  that 
good  men,  on  the  whole,  have  a  happier  lot 
than  bad  ones.  If,  in  reply,  we  say  that 
there  are  unexplained  and  grievous  inequal- 
ities notwithstanding,  may  not  the  rejoinder 
be:  (i)  Philosophically,  that  it  is  unreason- 
able to  suppose  that  the  entire  scheme 
of  God's  government  would  be  within  the 
comprehension  of  beings  such  as  the 
generality  of  men,  or  even  of  the  most 
considerable;  (2)  morally,  in  the  words  of 
Dante — 

74 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

'  Or  tu  chi  sei,  che  vuoi  sedere  a  scranna, 
Per  giudica  da  lungi  mille  miglia 
Con  la  veduta  corta  d'una  spanna  ? ' 

There  is  a  very  startling  passage  quoted  by 
Southey  from  John  Wesley,  in  his  Life, 
where  Wesley  predicts  that  his  followers, 
converted  from  vice  and  ignorance  to  be 
sober  and  regular  in  life,  will  infallibly  be- 
come well-to-do,  and  will  thereby  fall  into  a 
new  set  of  dangers  and  temptations.  Were 
any  man  able  humbly  and  intelligently  to 
say  that  he  had  been  treated  worse  than  he 
deserved,  this  might  be  supposed  to  set  up 
a  case  for  him.  But  I  am  not  such  a  man, 
having  been  treated,  not  worse,  but  far  bet- 
ter; so  that  I  cannot  travel  by  his  road,  even 
supposing  it  to  be  passable.  The  general 
experience  of  mankind  seems  to  offer  a  firmer 
basis  for  indubitable  argument  than  a  com- 
parison of  the  advertisements  in  the  Record 
or  the  Times.  And,  as  regards  the  nee  pietas 
moram,  surely  it  is  undeniable  that  what  we 
call  the  virtuous  man  most  commonly  lives 
longer  than  those  of  opposite  character." 

In  this  and  other  discussions  with  my  re- 
vered friend,  I  was  naturally  often  the  victim, 
not  exactly  of  an  argumentum  ad  verecun- 
diam,  but  of  a  silentium  ob  verecundiam.    But 

75 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

naturally,  also,  my  dim  religious  awe  of  him 
has  abated  with  time;  and  I  will  therefore 
comment  on  one  portion  of  what  I  cannot 
but  regard  as  his  inconclusive  reasoning.  In 
what  sense  can  a  man  be  treated  by  Provi- 
dence "worse*  or  "better"  than  he  de- 
serves? The  needs  of  society  compel  us  to 
annex  suffering,  not  to  all  sins,  but  to 
crimes,  as  a  punishment,  or  rather  as  a  de- 
terrent ;  but,  apart  from  social  needs,  sin  and 
suffering  are  incommensurable  quantities. 
Is  it  not,  therefore,  as  unmeaning  to  talk 
of  an  absolute  relation  between  so  much  sin 
and  so  much  suffering,  or  between  so  much 
virtue  and  so  much  happiness,  as  to  talk  of 
the  distance  between  the  1st  of  January  and 
Westminster  Bridge? 

Present  politics,  it  will  be  seen,  have  been 
hitherto  barely  touched  upon.  But,  as  Mr. 
Gladstone  without  present  politics  seems 
like  the  play  without  the  part  of  Hamlet,  I 
will  here  add  that  he  afterwards  expressed 
his  conviction  to  one  of  my  guests  that  at  no 
distant  time,  not  only  will  Home  Rule  in 
Ireland  have  been  carried,  but  people  will 
have  a  difficulty  in  understanding  the  state 
of  mind  which  postponed  the  carrying  of  it 
so  long. 

76 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  again  about  Mar- 
bot's  Memoirs ;  and  we  fell  to  talking  of  the 
first  Napoleon,  for  whom  he  entertained  a 
quasi-admiration  which  took  me  by  surprise. 
An  Epicurean  God,  if  he  had  deigned  to 
bestow  a  thought  on  the  inhabitants  of  our 
planet,  would  doubtless  have  regarded  Napo- 
leon as  the  Goliath  of  Lilliput,  as  the  biggest 
ant  in  the  ant-hill,  and,  in  a  word,  as  some- 
what less  insignificant  and  contemptible  than 
his  fellows.  Such  sages  as  Bacon  and  Goethe 
would  have  shared  this  view  to  the  extent 
of  thinking  that,  in  our  estimate  of  human 
achievements  generally,  as  in  our  estimate 
of  architecture,  mere  bulk  must  count  for 
something.  But  a  saint  or  a  stern  moralist 
would  naturally  have  looked  upon  the  great 
conqueror  as  a  murderer  on  a  huge  scale, 
who  ought  to  have  been  executed  when  con- 
victed of  his  first  crime.  It  was,  therefore, 
very  interesting  to  me  to  observe  that  Mr. 
Gladstone  seemed  to  feel — what  nearly  all 
men  of  imagination  sometimes  feel — an  odd 
sort  of  sympathy  even  with  such  greatness 
as  Napoleon's :  with  greatness  divorced  from 
goodness,  with  force  which  not  merely  makes 
history  exciting  {ut  pueris  placeas)  but  also 
stirs   up  the  stagnant  pools  of  civilisation. 

77 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  quoted  to  Mr.  Gladstone  the  exclamation 
reported  by  Wellington  as  having  been  ut- 
tered by  Talleyrand  when  someone,  on  hear- 
ing of  Napoleon's  death,  called  out,  "  Quel 
evenement!"  "  Ce  n'est  plus  un  evene- 
ment,"  replied  the  master  of  epigram;  "  Ce 
n'est  qu'une  nouvelle. "  Mr.  Gladstone  did 
not  like  this  saying,  which  he  criticised  as 
follows: — "  Your  anecdote  about  Talleyrand 
is  singularly  illustrative  of  the  man,  and  of 
the  blinding  power  of  a  cynical  habit  of  mind. 
See  how  this  nouvelle  struck  Manzoni,  who 
thus  describes  the  blank  left  in  the  world  by 
the  departure  of  that  Giant : — 

'Ei  f u  ;  Siccome  immobile, 
Dato  il  mortal   sospiro, 
Stette  la  spoglia  immemore 
Orba  di  tanto  spiro, 
Cosl  percossa,  attonita, 
La  terra  al  nunzio  sta  ; 
Muta  pensando  all'  ultima 
Ora  dell'  uom  fatale, 
Ne  sa  quando  una  simile 
Orma  di  pie  mortale 
La  sua  cruenta  polvere 
A  calpestar  verra.' 

This  is  the  noble  beginning  of  Manzoni's 
noble  ode  called  the  Cinque  Maggio. ' ' 1 

1  This  ode  was  translated  by  Mr.  Gladstone. 
78 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

This  ode  of  Manzoni  on  the  death  of 
Napoleon  Mr.  Gladstone  pronounced  to  be 
the  best  thing  that  was  written  on  the  sub- 
ject. He  thought  Byron's  ode  a  failure; 
and,  on  my  demurring,  he  said  it  was  cer- 
tainly not  equal  to  Manzoni's.  Goethe  had 
paid  Manzoni  the  compliment  of  translating 
the  ode  into  German ;  but  the  translation 
was  not  equal  to  the  original.  At  this  point 
I  cannot  forbear  asking:  Was  Talleyrand's 
exclamation  really  cynical?  In  saying  that 
Napoleon's  death,  occurring  when  it  did, 
was  merely  une  noitvelle,  he  was  speaking  the 
exact  truth.  Was  it  ungenerous  of  him  to 
give  utterance  to  that  truth?  Or  should  we 
not  rather  say  that  he  was  pointing  the 
finger,  not  at  Napoleon  in  exile,  but  at 
the  contrast  between  Napoleon  in  exile  and 
Napoleon  in  power,  and  at  the  caprice  of 
Fortune  by  which  the  bewildering  change 
had  been  brought  about?  In  fact,  he  was 
laying  stress  on  the  tragic  pathos  of  the 
great  Emperor's  career,  and  indirectly  at 
the  fragility  of  human  greatness  {Insignem 
attenuat  Deus).  So  that,  when  he  thus 
contemplated 

"The  Desolator  desolate, 
The  Victor  overthrown," 

79 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

or,  if  you  will,  Finem  animce  qua  res  humanas 
miscuit  olim,  he  was  only  expressing,  in  re- 
gard to  Napoleon,  the  sentiment  which 
Juvenal  expressed  about  Hannibal,  Johnson 
about  Charles  XII.,  and  Scott  about  Rich- 
ard I. — 

"He  left  a  name    at   which    the  world  grew  pale, 
To  point  a  moral  or  adorn  a  tale." 

January  2nd,  1893. — The  Gladstones  dined 
with  us. 

Mr.  Gladstone  never  saw  such  a  grand  sea 
and  such  sheets  of  foam  as  on  the  shore  of 
Biarritz ;  and  he  thought  that,  if  Tennyson 
had  seen  it,  he  would  have  written  about  it. 

He  is  of  opinion  that  Professor  Bryce,  in 
his  account  of  the  social  aspects  of  America, 
has  not  dwelt  enough  on  the  influence  of 
wealth.  He  thinks  that  the  "era  of  wealth," 
i.e.  of  colossal  fortunes,  is  setting  in ;  and  he 
regrets  it.  He  spoke  of  Mr.  A as  re- 
ported to  have  two  and  a  half  millions  a 
year:  "  The  Duke  of  Westminster  is  a  pau- 
per to  him!"  He  expected  that  in  a  cen- 
tury's time  the  chief  landed  estates  in  Eng- 
land would  still  be  intact.  He  spoke  of  one 
of  his  own  farmers  as  beginning  with  a  small 
farm  and  borrowing  money  to  work  it,  and 

80 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone. 

as  now  being  able  to  pay  his  way.  An  Essex 
farmer  had  sent  to  Mr.  Gladstone  jars  of  jam 
in  token  of  gratitude. 

I  spoke  of  genius  as  being  often  one- 
sided. 

G. — "  No.     Talent  is;  genius  is  not." 

Seeing  that  I  looked  unconvinced,  he 
asked  me  for  an  example  of  lopsided  genius. 
I  put  the  case  of  Milton. 

G. — "  Oh,  he  is  an  exception  to  all 
rules.  He  is  an  enigma — quite  inexpli- 
cable." 

He  spoke  in  extremely  strong  terms 
against  Milton's  ideas  of  divorce  which 
suited  so  ill  with  his  Puritanism.  He  ob- 
jected to  the  assertion  in  Paradise  Regained 
that  the  Greeks  had  borrowed  everything 
from  the  Jews.  I  remarked  that  even  the 
greatest  men  are  under  the  influence  of  the 
traditions  of  their  time. 

G. — "  I  cannot  admit  that  about  Milton. 
If  he  had  consistently  kept  to  those  tradi- 
tions, I  would.  But  when  he  broke  loose 
from  them  completely  by  writing  as  he  did 
on  divorce,  he  can  no  longer  be  excused  on 
that  ground." 

I  cited  Shelley  as  a  one-sided  man  of 
genius ;  but  Mr.  Gladstone  declined  to  admit 
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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  validity  of  this  instance,  on  the  ground 
that  Shelley,  dying  young,  never  quite 
"  broke  loose  from  the  eggshell." 

I  was  at  the  time  preparing  my  article  on 
"  Sir  Richard  Owen  and  Old  World  Memo- 
ries," which  was  afterwards  published  in 
the  National  Review  (July  1893).  Mr.  Glad- 
stone furnished  me  with  a  few  reminiscences 
of  Owen,  which  were  inserted  in  the  article 
by  his  kind  permission.  It  is  enough  for  my 
present  purpose  to  mention  that  he  said  to 
me,  in  reference  to  Owen,  that  seldom,  if 
ever,  had  any  man  of  science  left  on  his  mind 
such  an  impression  of  genius — not  talent 
merely,  but  genius.  Darwin  had  struck 
him  in  the  same  sort  of  way;  but  Darwin 
he  had  only  met  once  in  society.  And  he 
went  on  to  explain  that  on  the  comparative 
merits  of  the  two  men  of  science  he  offered 
no  opinion;  but  that,  so  far  as  his  personal 
observation  was  concerned,  Owen  was  the 
one  who  seemed  to  him  to  bear  the  stamp 
of  genius  most  unmistakably. 

T. — ' '  Would  you  not  also  say  that  H uxley 
is  unmistakably  a  man  of  genius? " 

G. — "  Certainly  not.  Huxley  has  talent 
to  any  amount,  but  not  genius.  One  of  the 
younger  men  of  science,  Romanes,  has  struck 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

me  a  good  deal.  I  should  say  that  he  has 
genius." 

With  the  greatest  possible  respect  for 
Romanes,  I  was  certainly  startled  at  finding 
him  (like  the  Prince  Consort  in  the  Albert 
Memorial)  thus  exalted  over  the  heads  of  his 
fellows.  The  orthodox  tendency  of  his  later 
years  may  partly  explain  his  being  set  above 
Huxley;  but  why  did  his  distinguished  critic 
prefer  him  even  to  those  scientific  men  who 
were  of  the  same  way  of  thinking?  May  not 
this  preference  have  been  in  some  measure 
due  to  the  fact  that  Mr.  Gladstone  regarded 
Romanes  as,  not  merely  a  Christian,  but  as 
a  proselyte,  nay,  as  a  reconverted  pervert? 
In  a  word,  is  it  not  probable  that  there  is 
joy  among  Anglicans  over  one  heretic  that 
recanteth  more  than  over  ninety  and  nine 
orthodox  persons  who  need  no  recantation? 
Perhaps,  after  all,  a  recanting  heretic  is 
especially  interesting  because  he  is  thought 
to  be  not  quite  safe, — to  be,  as  it  were,  a 
brand  pluckable  from  the  burning. 

It  may  be  worth  adding  in  this  connexion 
that  I  once  heard  Jowett  express  a  doubt 
whether  Mr.  Gladstone  himself  could  prop- 
erly be  called  a  man  of  genius.  An  orator 
of  genius,  he  said,  utters  many  words  and 

83 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

phrases  which  linger  in  men's  memory,  and 
hardly  any  word  or  phrase  so  lingering  has 
been  uttered  by  Mr.  Gladstone.  Surely  this 
is  too  narrow  a  test.  The  faculty  of  phrase- 
making  is  no  more  the  touchstone  of  genius 
than  is  many-sidedness  of  mind  in  the  sig- 
nification of  which  Mr.  Gladstone  would 
have  attached  to  that  term,  a  signification 
which  somehow  recalls  the  satirical  saw, 
Sapiunt,  quia  sentiunt  mecum. 

But,  after  all,  was  not  Jowett's  criticism 
unjust  to  Mr.  Gladstone  in  another  way? 
Were  all,  or  nearly  all,  the  orator's  charac- 
teristic sayings  writ  in  water  ?  Perhaps  I 
am  paradoxical ;  but  I  am  inclined  to  think 
that  the  very  popularity  of  some  of  his  epi- 
grammatic sallies  may  have  lessened  the 
permanent  credit  which  he  has  obtained  for 
them.  It  may  be  said  of  epigrams,  as  of 
marriageable  daughters,  that  the  cleverer  and 
more  pleasing  they  are,  the  sooner  are  they 
likely  to  be  dissociated  from  the  author  of 
their  being.  At  any  rate,  the  most  widely 
applicable  and  widely  circulated  epigrams  of 
a  talker  or  orator,  as  distinguished  from  those 
of  a  writer,  are  liable  to  be  thus  de-personal- 
ised. This  may  account  for  the  fact  that  so 
many  of  Mr.   Gladstone's  phrases  have,   to 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

employ  the  familiar  hyperbole,  become  Iliads 
without  a  Homer;  or  rather  they  have  be- 
come Iliads  with  a  not  universally  identified 
Homer.  My  meaning  may  be  more  or  less 
appropriately  illustrated  by  his  phrase,  "  the 
sorrowful  evidence  of  indisputable  fact  "  ;  by 
his  (variously  reported)  assertion  to  the 
effect  that  Political  Economy  has  now  been 
relegated  to  the  planet  Saturn  ;  and  perhaps, 
too,  by  his  allegation  that  a  notorious  event 
had  brought  a  needful  reform  "  within  the 
range  of  present  politics."  How  many  per- 
sons there  are  who,  when  they  quote  these 
and  similar  sayings  of  Mr.  Gladstone,  have 
no  notion  that  it  was  he  who  uttered  them ! 
The  division  of  the  population  into  the 
"  classes  "  and  the  "  masses  "  is  said  to  have 
been  popularised,  but  not  originated,  by 
him.  Its  real  author  is  apparently  unknown. 
So  that  here  we  have  a  wholly  de-personal- 
ised epigram ;  it  has  paid  for  its  popularity 
by  anonymity.  Let  me  add  that  Mr.  Glad- 
stone's own  expression  that  England  is 
guarded  by  a  "  streak  of  silver  sea  "  is  often 
fathered  on  the  Shakespearean  John  of 
Gaunt.  This  patriotic  exclamation,  or,  as 
St.  Paul  would  have  said,  this  "  confident 
boasting"  of  his,  may  suggest  another  re- 

85 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

flection.  It  is  obvious  to  remark  that  the 
watery  bulwark  which  he  so  highly  valued 
would  be,  metaphorically  as  well  as  literally, 
undermined  by  the  Channel  Tunnel  for 
which,  as  we  shall  see  presently,  he  was  so 
eager.  Indeed,  it  must  be  understood,  once 
for  all,  that  I  am  not  raising  the  question 
whether  the  Gladstonian  apothegms  to  which 
I  have  referred  were  wisely  and  seasonably 
uttered.     All   I   insist  on    is    that  they  are 

such  stuff"  as  proverbs  are  made  of;  in 
other  words,  they  have  something  about 
them  which  has  brought  them  into  social 
currency;  and  they  have  continued  in  circu- 
lation, not  because  of  the  famous  image  and 
superscription  which  they  originally  bore,  but 
even  after  that  image  and  superscription  had 
been  gradually  effaced.1 

Mr.  Gladstone  said  that  the  Church  of 
England  took  its  form  from  Henry  VIII., 
Elizabeth,  and  Laud.  He  thought  little  of 
Cranmer  on  account  of  his  moral  weakness; 
and   not   much  of  Latimer.     He  said  that 

1 1  have  lately  come  across  a  remarkable  passage  which 
gives  independent,  if  somewhat  indirect,  support  to  the 
general  view  set  forth  in  this  paragraph.  "  A  writer," 
says  Johnson,  "  who  obtains  his  full  purpose  loses  himself 
in  his  own  lustre.  ...  Of  an  art  universally  practised, 
the  first  teacher  is  forgotten." 

86 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Latimer,  when  a  Catholic,  preached  a  ser- 
mon while  a  man  was  being  roasted  on  a 
slow  fire. 

G. — "  I  have  a  weakness  for  Latimer,  all 
the  same." 

Thinking  this  too  little  praise  for  Latimer, 
I  gave  him  (as  the  phrase  goes)  "  a  strange 
bed-fellow,"  by  saying  that  I  had  a  weak- 
ness for  Charles  I. 

G. — "  So  have  I,  although  he  was  unfor- 
tunately such  a  liar!  " 

I  remarked  that  Shakespeare,  if  it  had 
been  his  supreme  misfortune  to  be  one  of 
the  Stuart  kings,  might  have  found  no  open- 
ing for  his  dramatic  genius,  and  might  now 
be  remembered  only  as  uniting  the  faults  of 
Charles  I.  and  Charles  II.  The  indifference 
with  which  he  refers  to  Prince  John's  treat- 
ment of  the  rebels  in  Henry  IV.  Part  II. 
shows  that  he  had  some  sympathy  with  the 
view  that  no  engagement  was  binding  be- 
tween a  king  and  rebel  subjects. 

G. — "  I  quite  agree  with  you;  indeed,  I 
will  go  further.  Shakespeare  seems  to  me  to 
have  been  a  worshipper  of  the  Tudor  despot- 
ism. I  say  this  with  deep  regret.  The  three 
great  poets  of  the  world  would,  I  think, 
generally  be  admitted  to  be  Homer,  Dante 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  Shakespeare ;  the  Germans  would  add 
Goethe.  The  morality  of  Dante  is  always 
pure  and  good.  Homer,  too,  seems  always 
to  throw  our  sympathies  on  the  right 
side." 

I  demurred,  and  mentioned  the  case  of 
Dolon. 

G. — "  That  was  a  night  march,  and  it  was 
necessary  to  meet  stratagem  by  stratagem." 

T. — ' '  Diomed  and  Ulysses  virtually  prom- 
ised Dolon  his  life,  and  should  have  spared 
him." 

G. — "  We  must  make  allowance  for  the 
morality  of  Homer's  day,  and  the  little  value 
that  was  then  set  on  human  life." 

To  me  it  seems  that  the  principle  that  he 
thus  called  to  his  aid  is  of  such  wide  applica- 
tion that,  if  it  proves  anything,  it  proves 
more  than  he  intended.  Either  men  of 
genius  are  bound  to  rise  above  the  moral 
standard  of  their  age,  or  they  are  not.  If 
they  are,  why  excuse  Homer?  If  they  are 
not,  why  condemn  Shakespeare? 

Mr.  Gladstone  said  that  Sir  Henry  Tay- 
lor, in  his  Correspondence,  spoke  of  Walter 
Scott's  moral  judgments  as  being  sound,  but 
feeble.  In  explanation  of  this,  Mr.  Glad- 
stone added  that,  while  setting  the  power  of 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

delineating  character  above  any  other,  he 
himself  thought  that  it  tended  to  give  such 
"  objectivity  "  to  the  view  of  moral  and  im- 
moral conduct  as  to  weaken  the  sense  of  sin. 
He  promised  to  send  me  the  reference  to 
the  passage  in  Taylor's  Correspondence  ;  and, 
as  will  be  seen  further  on,  he  kept  his  word. 
In  return,  I  drew  his  attention  to  the  fol- 
lowing observations  of  Ruskin  : — 

"  It  was  necessary  he  [Shakespeare]  should  lean 
no  way  ;  that  he  should  contemplate  with  absolute 
equality  of  judgment  the  life  of  the  court,  cloister, 
and  tavern,  and  be  able  to  sympathise  so  completely 
with  all  creatures  as  to  deprive  himself,  together 
with  his  personal  identity,  even  of  his  conscience,  as 
he  casts  himself  into  their  hearts.  He  must  be  able 
to  enter  into  the  soul  of  Falstaff  or  Shylock  with  no 
more  sense  of  contempt  or  horror  than  Falstaff  or 
Shylock  themselves  feel  for  or  in  themselves.  He 
must  be  utterly  without  anger,  utterly  without  pur- 
pose ;  for  if  a  man  has  any  serious  purpose  in  life, 
that  which  runs  counter  to  it,  or  is  foreign  to  it,  will 
be  looked  at  frowningly  or  carelessly  by  him." 

T. — "  Do  you  not  call  this  passage  inter- 
esting? " 

G. — "  I  call  it,  not  interesting  merely,  but 
wonderful." 

I  spoke  of  Tennyson's  admiration  for  the 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

passage  in  Paradise  Lost  about  "  Tammuz," 
and  for  the  line — 

"  Of  Abana  and  Pharphar,  lucid  streams." 

In  regard  to  this  line,  Mr.  Gladstone  agreed 
with  Tennyson,  and  he  went  on  to  quote 
with  sonorous  enthusiasm  his  favourite  line 
in  the  Odyssey — 

"  urfde  ri  x£iP0V0'>  dvSpuZ  evtppaivoijj.1  vor/jua,,} 

and  spoke  of  this  as  specially  fine,  because 
the  sentiment  is  expressed  by  a  woman. 
Clearly,  however,  the  sentiment  is  not  Pen- 
elope's, but  Homer's.  Would  there  not 
have  been  more  point  in  Mr.  Gladstone's 
remark  if  he  had  agreed  with  Mr.  Samuel 
Butler  in  thinking  that  the  Odyssey  was 
written  by  a  woman  ? 

He  never  quite  forgave  Walter  Scott  for 
the  part  he  took  about  Queen  Caroline's 
trial,  or  for  his  somewhat  servile  loyalty  to 
"  that  creature  George  IV."  Also  he  re- 
garded Scott's  Toryism  as  "  silly."  I  asked 
whether  such  Toryism  was  not  inevitable  in 
such  an  admirer  of  antiquity.  In  reply,  he 
expressed  a  wish  that  modern  Conservatives 
had  a  greater  love  of  antiquity.  Lord  Salis- 
bury had  broken  too  much  from  old  tradi- 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

tions  in  being  at  once  Prime  Minister  and 
Foreign  Secretary,  and  also  in  making  Hux- 
ley a  Privy  Councillor.  Mr.  Gladstone  would 
have  preferred  some  other  form  of  distinction 
for  the  great  biologist.  He  was  angry  with 
the  Conservatives  for  distributing  G.C.B. 's 
broadcast  before  leaving  office,  among  men 
who  had  no  claim  to  them,  and  did  not  ex- 
pect them.  He  said  that  the  Liberals  were 
equally  wanting  in  respect  for  antiquity;  but 
this  was  excusable  in  them — such  a  defect 
was  their  besetting  sin. 

I  dined  with  Mr.  and  Mrs.  Gladstone. 

I  quoted  the  Basque  proverb,  that  "  the 
needle,  which  clothes  others,  remains  naked 
itself";  and  applied  it  to  France,  which, 
while  herself  subject  to  Louis  Napoleon, 
gave  free  institutions  to  Italy.  He  approved 
of  the  comparison,  and  went  on  to  speak  of 
the  dangers  of  the  Republic.  But  he  re- 
marked that  each  form  of  government  since 
the  Revolution  had  lasted  longer  than  the 
one  before.  (He  cannot  have  counted  the 
Republic  of  1848.)  I  said  that  Charles  Aus- 
tin used  to  maintain  that  France  had  lost 
her  best  chance  of  good  government  when 
she  got  rid  of  Louis  Philippe.     Mr.  Glad- 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

stone  said  that  he  was  inclined  to  judge 
Louis  Philippe  severely,  as  having  been 
narrow-minded.  I  spoke  of  his  Ministers, 
and  asked  whether  they  were  not  responsible 
for  the  faults  of  his  reign.  Mr.  Gladstone 
thought  that  they  had  acted  under  royal 
pressure,  and  that  if  Leopold  had  been  their 
king  the  course  of  French  history  might 
have  been  different. 

I  asked  him  what  value  he  attached  to  the 
study  and  composition  of  Latin  and  Greek 
verses.  I  told  him  that  Goethe  advised 
everyone  to  repeat  a  few  stanzas  of  good 
poetry  daily,  and  added  that  I  myself  re- 
peated one  of  Horace's  Odes  daily.  He 
advised  me  to  set  about  translating  them 
into  English  verse.  He  had  done  so  quite 
recently. 

A  friend  of  Bagehot's  once  said  of  Mr. 
Gladstone,  "  He  may  be  a  good  Christian, 
but  he  is  an  atrocious  pagan."  The  word 
"pagan'1  is  here  used  in  a  good  sense. 
And,  when  it  was  denied  that  Mr.  Gladstone 
was  a  good  pagan,  it  was  meant  that  he  was 
not  marked,  as  most  Englishmen  and  phi- 
losophers of  all  countries  are  marked,  by 
that  dislike  of  extremes,  and  by  those  self- 
sufficing  and  self-restraining  qualities  which 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

go  to  make  up  the  "  magnanimous  man  ' 
portrayed  by  Aristotle.  He  was  no  doubt 
open  to  this  charge;  yet  even  in  him  the 
wholesale  pagan  ingredient  was  not  quite 
wanting.  His  continued  study  of  Horace 
proves  this.  To  study  Horace  is  to  learn 
nil  admirari ;  and  the  prolonged  effort  of 
translating  him  must  serve  to  dilute  Chris- 
tian with  pagan  modes  of  feeling. 

Mr.  Gladstone  found  that  he  could  write 
Latin  verses  at  least  as  well  at  sixty  as  when 
he  was  a  young  man.  But  he  had  since 
given  it  up.  He  was  in  favour  of  keeping  up 
Latin  verses,  but  was  not  eager  for  compul- 
sory English  verses.  He  spoke  of  Charles 
Wesley  as  having  written  120,000  lines  of 
English  verse — more  than  all  the  great  epic 
poems  of  the  world  put  together.  He  said 
there  was  a  difference  of  opinion  about  how 
much  Wesley  had  written ;  but  he  thought 
that  4,000  hymns  was  a  low  estimate,  and 
each  of  them  he  computed  at  thirty  lines  on 
an  average.  He  thought  him  a  much  over- 
rated writer,  "  Wrestling  Jacob"  being  the 
only  one  he  cared  for. 

Does  "  Wrestling  Jacob,"  I  would  ask, 
deserve  the  praise  it  so  often  receives?  Does 
not   this  versified  allegory,  even   more  than 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  doxology  after  the  Psalms,  impress  one 
as  a  sort  of  Vandalism,  or,  at  least,  as  a  jar- 
ring anachronism,  by  engrafting  the  highly- 
developed  Catholic  theology  on  one  of  the 
very  oldest  and  rudest  of  Israelitish  stocks? 
I  mentioned  that  it  was  my  habit  to  repeat 
Tennyson's  "  St.  Agnes'  Eve,"  and  the 
canto  of  "  In  Memoriam  "  beginning  "O  yet 
we  trust,"  on  Sundays.  This  canto  ex- 
presses my  religious  aspirations  better  than 
anything  else.  He  asked  me,  evidently  with 
an  implied  negative  (equivalent  to  the  Latin 
Num)  discernible  in  his  voice,  whether  I 
thought  Tennyson  a  philosopher.  I  replied 
that  our  aspirations  point  to  the  conclusion 
that  all  evil  may  be  educative.  He  hinted 
at  the  difficulty  involved  in  the  pain  suffered 
by  the  lower  animals,  and  said  that  he  con- 
sidered "  the  existence  of  evil  inexplicable." 
I  could  not  help  calling  to  mind  the  con- 
siderations commonly  adduced  to  prove  the 
indispensability  of  evil — considerations  to  the 
effect  that  "  the  rays  of  happiness,  like  those 
of  light,  are  colourless  when  unbroken," 
and  that  even  the  horticulture  of  Eden  would 
have  grown  wearisome  without  the  snake. 
Or  perhaps  it  would  be  a  juster  as  well  as  a 
more    pleasing   metaphor   to    say   that    the 

94 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

world,  like  the  water  of  Bethesda,  has  to  be 
troubled  in  order  that  its  latent  virtue  may- 
be drawn  out.  But  I  felt  that  every  such 
supposition  must,  at  bottom,  rest  on  the 
assumption  that  the  Deity  is  limited  in 
power,  and  that  to  Mr.  Gladstone's  mind 
the  notion  of  such  Divine  limitation  would 
be  abhorrent. 

I  asked  him  what  he  thought  of  Professor 
Mivart's  article  in  the  Nineteenth  Century, 
called  "  The  Happiness  in  Hell." 

G. — "  If  a  man  begins  by  being  tipsy 
sometimes,  and  ends  by  being  dead  drunk 
daily, — if  he  begins  by  beating  his  wife,  and 
ends  by  killing  her,  I  see  no  reason  to  think 
he  will  begin  to  improve  as  soon  as  he  dies." 

I  remarked  that  Dives  is  represented  as 
testifying,  when  in  "  torments,"  a  sympathy 
with  his  surviving  kinsfolk;  but  I  added  that 
I  did  not  pretend  to  draw  from  this  expres- 
sion of  sympathy  the  hopeful  conclusion 
that  many  Broad  Churchmen  draw,  namely, 
that  he  was  not  in  Hell,  but  in  Purgatory. 

G. — "  I  look  upon  Dives  as  a  very  mild 
instance.  As  landlords  go,  he  was  above 
the  average ;  he  did  let  Lazarus  have  of  his 
superfluities." 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  hint  that  his 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

case  was  not  represented  as  beyond  hope. 
I  said  that  surely  the  text  about  the  impass- 
able gulf  suggested  the  idea  that  Dives' 
doom  was  final ;  but  Mr.  Gladstone  was  not 
convinced.  His  last  words  about  it  were, 
"  I  will  give  you  something  to  think  over — 
Have  time  and  space  any  existence  outside  the 
human  intelligence?'  "Unquestionably," 
I  replied,  "  they  exist  for  the  animal  intelli- 
gence." He  said  that  he  regarded  that  as 
the  same  thing  on  a  small  scale.  And  then 
came  the  final  "  God  bless  you." 

I  had  a  talk  with  Mr.  Gladstone  in  which 
he  told  me  that  he  wished  above  all  things 
to  keep  up  righteous  indignation.  I  replied 
that  anyone  who  studied  heredity,  and  felt 
how  much  some  people  are  handicapped  in 
the  moral  race,  can  hardly  keep  up  an  acute 
sense  of  sin;  and  on  that  account  I  excused 
the  deficiency  of  that  sense  in  Shakespeare 
and  Scott.  He  said  that  he  did  not  see  that 
Shakespeare  and  Scott  were  students  of 
heredity,  or  that  Shakespeare,  at  any  rate, 
seemed  at  all  conscious  of  the  moral  diffi- 
culties connected  with  it.  I  could  not  help 
thinking  that,  in  speaking  thus,  he  went  too 
far.     In  Antony  and  Cleopatra,  Lepidus  says 

96  ' 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

of  Antony's  faults  that  they  are  "  hereditary 
rather  than  purchased ;  what  he  cannot 
change,  than  what  he  chooses."  So,  too, 
Hamlet  cites  the  case  of  certain  men  having 

"  Some  vicious  mole  of  nature  in  them, 

As  in  their  birth  (wherein  they  are  not  guilty, 
Since  nature  cannot  choose  his  origin)." 

But  it  should  be  observed  that,  in  these 
passages,  Shakespeare  seems  to  limit  the 
plea  of  heredity  to  the  case  of  venial  faults, 
and  that  he  fails  to  realise  the  full  force  of 
the  difficulty.  On  the  other  hand,  Tenny- 
son felt  the  difficulty  in  its  widest  scope,  as 
is  shown  in  the  following  passage,  which  he 
puts  into  the  mouth  of  the  cultivated  villain 
in  "  The  Promise  of  May  "  :— 

"  He  was  only 
A  poor  philosopher  who  called  the  mind 
Of  children  a  blank  page,  a  tabula  rasa. 
There,  there,  is  written  in  invisible  ink 
Lust,  Prodigality,  Covetousness,  Craft, 
Cowardice,  Murder — and  the  heat  and  fire 
Of  life  will  bring  them  out,  and  black  enough, 
So  the  child  grew  to  manhood." 

I   reminded   Mr.    Gladstone  of   the  story 
that  Baxter,  seeing  a  criminal  on  his  way  to 
execution,  exclaimed,  "  There,  but  for  the 
7  97 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

grace  of  God,  goes  Richard  Baxter!'  I 
remarked  that  I  had  heard  a  like  saying 
ascribed  to  Sir  Matthew  Hale. 

Mr.  Gladstone  believed  that  its  date  was 
farther  back,  and  that  its  author  was  Brad- 
ford, the  martyr  under  Queen  Mary.  The 
saying  points  to  the  conclusion  that  men 
are  to  a  great  extent  the  creatures  of  cir- 
cumstance. Our  conversation  was  thus 
brought  back  to  the  perennial  suit  in  the 
Court  of  Morality,  which  may  be  designated 
as  the  case  of  Necessity  versus  Responsi- 
bility. Mr.  Gladstone  had  once  significantly 
exhorted  me  to  be  careful  not  to  blunt  my 
sense  of  sin ;  and  I  thought  that  he  scarcely 
understood  the  process  by  which  the  "  smil- 
ing toleration  ' '  commended  by  Goethe  forces 
itself  upon  some  naturally  rigid  moralists  in 
their  own  despite.  I  was  anxious  to  illus- 
trate clearly  my  point  of  view;  and  I  there- 
fore (in  biblical  phrase)  "  took  up  my  par- 
able "  as  follows:  Let  us  start  with  the 
supposition — no  matter  how  extravagant — 
that  a  band  of  Anarchists,  incensed  against 
their  leading  countrymen,  revenge  them- 
selves by  kidnapping  many  infant  sons  of 
bishops,  statesmen,  and  even  princes;  that 
the  poor  children,   captured   too  young  to 

93 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

retain  any  recollection  of  their  home  and 
parentage,  are  brought  up  to  prefer  evil  to 
good ;  and  that  their  corruptors,  by  dexter- 
ous lying,  inoculate  them  with  a  rancorous 
hatred  against  peaceful,  and  especially 
against  rich  citizens.  Let  it  be  also  as- 
sumed that  the  bereaved  parents  suppose 
that  their  lost  ones  have  been  accidentally 
killed  in  some  manner  (as  by  drowning  in 
the  sea),  which  would  account  for  the  dis- 
appearance of  their  bodies,  and  that  they 
are  gradually  consoled  by  reflecting  that 
some  at  least  of  their  other  sons  bid  fair  to 
earn  credit  and  distinction.  Let  us  now  skip 
twenty  or  thirty  years,  and  imagine  that, 
just  when  those  early  promises  of  credit  and 
distinction  are  beginning  to  be  realised,  some 
atrocious  murders  are  brought  home  to 
youths  who  look  as  if  Nature  had  designed 
them  for  better  things ;  and  that,  as  soon  as 
sentence  of  death  has  been  passed  on  the 
offenders,  the  original  kidnappers,  from  some 
safe  hiding-place,  let  it  be  known  that  those 
felons  of  aristocratic  mien  are  the  sons  of 
distinguished  parents,  and  are  kinsmen — in 
a  few  instances,  perhaps,  twin-brothers — of 
some  of  the  most  rising  men  in  the  country. 
The  law  would  presumably  be  left  to  take 

99 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

its  course;  but  the  irresponsible  murderers 
(so  to  call  them)  would  excite  compassion 
rather  than  indignation.  They  would  be 
thought  to  have  sinned,  and  to  be  about 
to  suffer,  as  it  were  by  accident.  Nor  would 
compassion  be  limited  to  these  particular 
offenders.  Presently,  what  may  be  called 
the  intellectualising  but  demoralising  ques- 
tion would  begin  to  be  asked:  May  not 
many  of  our  worst  criminals  be  men  who, 
but  for  a  caprice  of  fortune,  would  have 
given  proof  of  possessing  true  hearts  and 
"  hands  that  the  rod  of  empire  might  have 
swayed  "?  And  thus  life  would  come  to  be 
regarded  as  a  cruel  farce,  in  which  the  play- 
ers act  by  compulsion,  and  every  player  who 
has  to  act  a  villain's  part  is  punished  for  the 
villain's  crimes.  Thus,  we  seem  to  be  in  a 
vicious  circle  from  which  there  is  no  escape. 
If  we  acknowledge  with  Madame  de  Stael 
that  "  Tout  comprendre,  c'est  tout  pardon- 
ner,"  we  are  bound  to  add  "  Tout  par- 
donner,  c'est  6teindre  la  morale." 

After  first  listening  with  exemplary  pa- 
tience to  what  may  be  termed  these  para- 
bolic reflections,  and  then  expressing  a  doubt 
whether  Madame  de  Stael  meant  her  mot  to 
be  taken  quite  literally,  Mr.  Gladstone  went 

ioo 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

on  to  say:  "  I  will  go  the  length  of  admit- 
ting that,  even  in  the  extreme  case  of  pro- 
nouncing the  sentence  of  death,  a  judge,  if 
he  is  really  a  Christian  man,  will  be  liable  to 
say  to  himself,  '  God  knows  how  much  that 
man  has  been  tempted,  and  though  for  the 
sake  of  Society  I  am  bound  to  punish  him, 
he  may  on  the  Judgment  Day  be  preferred 
before  me.'  " 

I  rejoined  that  many  modern  thinkers 
would  hold  that,  if  full  allowance  were  made 
for  heredity,  education  and  temptation,  then 
judge,  criminal,  and  everyone  else  would 
stand  exactly  on  a  level.  When  a  man  has 
been  thoroughly  worsted  by  another  in  the 
moral  race,  may  we  not  assume  that  he  has 
laboured  under  a  corresponding  disadvan- 
tage? nay,  that  the  extent  of  the  defeat  is 
exactly  measured  by  the  amount  of  the 
handicap? 

G. — "  No;  I  cannot  admit  that." 
In  illustration  of  the  view  to  which  he  was 
opposed,  I  am  tempted  to  mention  that,  in 
one  of  the  most  "modern'  of  Lucian's 
Dialogues,  the  ghost  of  an  outrageous  crim- 
inal, after  being  condemned  to  the  most 
varied  and  unremitting  tortures  that  the 
nether  regions  can  provide,  sets  up  the  plea 

IOI 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

that  he  was  throughout  the  victim  of  Des- 
tiny; and  Minos  is  at  his  wits'  end  to  know 
how  to  deal  with  him. 

Reverting  to  a  topic  referred  to  in  a  former 
conversation,  I  spoke  about  the  immense 
popularity  which  was  at  the  time  achieved 
by  Sheridan's  Begum  Speech,  and  which 
modern  readers  find  it  hard  to  understand. 
Can  that  speech  have  been  well  reported? 

G. — "  Has  any  speech  of  that  time,  any 
speech  (for  example)  of  either  of  the  Pitts, 
been  well  reported?  The  younger  Pitt  is 
chiefly  known,  as  an  orator,  for  his  happy 
quotations.  When  taunted  with  his  youth, 
he  applied  to  himself  Horace's 

'  probamque 
Pauperiem  sine  dote  quaero  ' — 

the  preceding  clause,  '  mea  Virtute  me  in- 
volvo,'  being  conspicuous  by  its  omission. 
He  applied  most  unjustly  to  Ireland  and 
England  the  lines  about  being  under  equal 
laws;  and  there  was  also  the  quotation  from 
Virgil  which  he  introduced  into  his  speech 
against  the  slave  trade."  l 

1 "  He  [Pitt]  burst  as  it  were  into  a  prophetic  vision  of 
the  civilisation  that  shall  dawn  upon  Africa,  and  recalled 
the  not  less  than  African  barbarism  of  heathen  Britain  ; 
exclaiming,  as  the  first  beams  of  the  morning  sun  pierced 

102 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  reminded  him  that  Pitt  quoted  the 
stanza,  beginning  Duris  ut  ilex,  in  reference 
to  the  attempts  made  by  Napoleon  to 
weaken  Great  Britain  by  injuring  her  colo- 
nies and  her  trade.  He  regretted  that  no 
such  quotations  are  given  or  would  be  under- 
stood now. 

He  said  that  he  was  "  suffused  with 
shame  "  about  the  conduct  of  the  English 
in  regard  to  the  Channel  Tunnel.  It  used 
to  be  said  that  the  opposition  to  it  came 
from  one  man,  namely,  Lord  Palmerston. 
But  then  the  panic  arose.  At  the  request 
of  the  English  Government,  the  French  took 
great  trouble  to  make  inquiries  as  to  the 
practicability  of  the  scheme. 

G. — "  We  English  plume  ourselves  on  our 
common  sense,  and  are  never  tired  of  laugh- 
ing at  the  frivolity  and  vacillation  of  the 
French.     But,  since  the  Norman  Conquest, 

the  windows  of  Parliament,  and  appeared  to  suggest  the 
quotation  : — 

'  Nos  .   .   .  primus  equis  Oriens  afflavit  anhelis, 
Illic  sera  rubens  accendit  lumina  Vesper.'  " 

Lord  Rosebery's  Pitt. 
The  point  of  comparison  seems  to  have  been  that  the 
blessing  of  freedom  was  granted   to  the  English   at  the 
dawn  of  their  history,  but  that  it  was  being  vouchsafed  to 
the  negroes  only  at  the  eleventh  hour. 

l°3 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  English  have  invaded  France  at  least  ten 
times  as  often  as  the  French  have  invaded 
England.  And  yet  the  English  now  raise 
this  outcry  about  the  risk  of  a  French  inva- 
sion. 

I  put  in  a  word  about  the  French  conscrip- 
tion, and  about  their  army  being  now  much 
stronger  than  ours. 

"  From  your  speaking  in  that  way,"  he 
said,  with  a  smile,  "  I  see  what  line  you  are 
disposed  to  take  about  the  tunnel." 

The  orator  in  him  came  out  when  he  made 
the  somewhat  extravagant  statement,  that 
Pius  IX.  was  more  ignorant  than  he  thought 
any  educated  man  could  be;  for  his  Holi- 
ness had  said  that  there  were  half  a  million 
of  Catholics  in  Glasgow.  I  imagine  that  his 
Holiness,  if  Mr.  Gladstone  rightly  under- 
stood him,  must  have  confounded  the  num- 
ber of  Catholics  in  Glasgow  with  that  of  the 
entire  population.  Mr.  Gladstone  surprised 
me  by  knowing  accurately  the  population  of 
Liverpool,  and  the  number  of  Catholics 
there.  He  appeared  to  think  that,  if  the 
Scotch  Kirk  were  disestablished,  the  result 
might  be  a  fusion  of  the  three  Presbyterian 
bodies. 

He    seemed    irritated    with    the    German 

104 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

writers,  who  taught  that  the  Iliad  and  the 
Odyssey  were  made  up,  as  he  said,  "of  a 
fortuitous  concourse  of  atoms."  Goethe 
never  favoured  this  view.  Mr.  Gladstone 
went  on  to  advert  to  the  extreme  clumsiness 
of  German  prose,  always  excepting  that  of 
a  few  great  writers.  He  spoke  of  German 
prose  as  being ' '  worthy  of  African  savages. ' ' 
Being  asked  how  he  explained  this,  he  com- 
pared the  German  prose  of  the  present  day 
to  the  English  prose  of  two  or  three  centu- 
ries ago.  I  said  that  Matthew  Arnold  spoke 
of  the  function  of  the  eighteenth  century  in 
England  as  being  to  create  a  prose  literature. 
He  replied  that  he  did  not  know  that  Mat- 
thew Arnold  had  said  this ;  but  that  he  quite 
agreed. 

A  propos  of  modern  views  on  eternal  pun- 
ishment, he  pronounced  the  besetting  sins 
of  rationalistic  writers  to  be  "  negation  and 
timidity."  I  objected  that  in  Mr.  John 
Morley  and  others  we  find  negation,  but 
certainly  not  timidity.  He  said  that  he  was 
not  speaking  of  such  men,  and  did  not  use 
the  word  "  negation  "  in  that  sense.  He 
seemed  to  use  the  word  as  equivalent  to 
a  conscious  or  unconscious  moral  scepti- 
cism. 

i°5 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

He  again  gave  utterance  to  the  opinion 
expressed  by  him  in  a  former  conversation, 
that  Matthew  Arnold  ought  to  have  rep- 
resented conduct  as  comprising,  not  only 
three-quarters  of  life,  but  the  whole  of  it. 
In  vindication  of  the  great  critic,  I  reminded 
Mr.  Gladstone  that  he  himself  in  his  Ro- 
manes Lecture  had  ranked  Bacon  among 
those  of  whom  Cambridge  ought  to  be  proud. 
Now,  if  conduct  comprises  the  whole  of  life, 
every  man  ought  to  be  judged  by  an  exclu- 
sively moral  standard  ;  and,  if  Bacon  were  so 
judged,  Cambridge  would  have  no  cause  to 
be  proud  of  him.  His  title  to  admiration 
is  based  on  that  portion — Matthew  Arnold 
would  say  that  fourth  part — of  life  which 
lies  outside  the  domain  of  morality.  This 
"wisest,  brightest,  meanest  of  mankind" 
is  more  praised  for  his  wisdom  and  bright- 
ness than  he  is  condemned  for  his  meanness. 
As  a  schoolboy  might  say,  he  obtained  more 
marks  for  his  Philosophical  papers  and  his 
Essays,  than  his  virtuous  contemporaries 
obtained  for  their  good  conduct. 

Mr.  Gladstone  replied  that  he  had  only 
been  assigning  to  Bacon  his  rank  in  respect 
of  ability.  But  I  could  not  see  that  this 
met  the  difficulty.     Cambridge  would    not 

1 06 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

have  cause  to  be  proud  of  having  produced 
a  very  able  conspirator  or  traitor. 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  say  that,  when 
he  gave  the  Romanes  Lecture,  he  thought 
that  before  this  century  Cambridge  had  had 
the  distinct  advantage  in  regard  to  poets; 
but  Mr.  Arthur  Galton  had  given  instances 
of  Cambridge  poets  who  took  a  dislike  to 
Cambridge,  and  in  some  cases  preferred 
Oxford.  He  said  that  Dryden  spoke,  in 
this  relation,  of  going  from  Thebes  to 
Athens;  and  he  wondered,  if,  in  thus  giving 
the  palm  to  Oxford,  Dryden  was  a  liar,  or, 
as  he  expressed  it,  "a  rogue."  He  ex- 
pressed great  admiration  for  Dryden's  power 
of  arguing  in  verse,  as  shown  in  "  The  Hind 
and  Panther."  He  spoke  of  Thomas  Crom- 
well as  a  wonderful  man,  though  "  some- 
thing of  a  rogue."  He  had  never  heard  the 
famous  answer  in  an  examination  to  the 
question,  '  What  do  you  know  of  Oliver 
Cromwell?"  '  He  cut  off  his  king's  head, 
and  usurped  the  kingdom.  Afterwards  he 
was  filled  with  remorse,  and  exclaimed,  when 
dying,  '  Would  that  I  had  served  my  God 
as  I  have  served  my  king! '  " 

The  conversation  passed  on  to  the  subject 
of   Malapropisms,  which    seemed   to  amuse 

107 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Mr.  Gladstone.  Someone  mentioned  that 
a  lady  friend,  observing  that  one  of  her 
horses  was  in  much  better  condition  than 
his  mate,  was  told  by  the  groom,  "  This  one 
domesticates  his  food  better  than  the  other." 
This  was  capped  by  the  true  story  of  the 
lady,  who,  having  complained  to  her  butcher 
that  the  meat  he  had  sent  her  was  high,  was 
met  with  the  surprised  and  surprising  re- 
joinder, "  You  putrefy  me  with  amaze- 
ment !  " 

I  called  Mr.  Gladstone's  attention  to  a 
line  in  Milton's  translation  of  the  Ode  Quis 
mult  a  gracilis — 

"  Who.  always  vacant,  always  amiable, 
Hopes  thee  "  : 

and  I  expressed  an  opinion  that  an  inverted 
sentence  of  this  kind  is  less  plain  in  English 
than  in  Latin.  This  led  on  to  Mr.  Glad- 
stone's saying  that  he  was  in  favour  of  orig- 
inal classical  compositions;  but  he  owned  to 
having  some  misgivings. 

He  regarded  with  "  mingled  jealousy  and 
admiration  "  the  purity  of  Bright's  English, 
but  said  that  Bright  had  once  fallen  into  one 
of  the  "  worst  of  vulgarisms  "  ;  Bright  used 
the  verb  "to  transpire"   in   the    sense    of 

108 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

"  to  occur."  Mr.  Gladstone  remarked  that 
"  transpire  "  properly  meant  "  to  ooze  out." 
I  reminded  him  that  "to  perspire  "  in  French 
was  "  transpirer,"  and  was  surprised  to  find 
that  this  was  news  to  him. 

He  was  struck  by  the  way  in  which  some 
eminent  scholars  who  were  also  masters  of 
English,  such  as  Roundell  Palmer,  showed 
no  classical  flavour  in  their  English  composi- 
tions.    Lowe  was  a  great  exception  to  this. 

G. — "  If  people  went  into  an  extreme 
about  Classics,  the  last  half  of  the  nineteenth 
century  has  gone  into  just  as  great  an  ex- 
treme about  modern  languages.  I  believe 
that  science  will  be  the  great  instrument  of 
education  in  the  future.  You  may  find 
something  to  suit  all  intellectual  needs  in 
the  various  sciences  from  Astronomy  to — 
what  shall  I  say?  " 

T. — "  To  Gastronomy?" 

G.  {smiling) — "  No — to  Embryology." 

He  said  that  he  had  called  Mill  the  "  Saint 
of  Rationalism,"  and  gave  as  an  example  of 
his  saintliness  that,  when  a  rather  bitter 
attack  had  been  made  on  him  by  Lowe  in  a 
debate  on  reform,  he  attempted  no  retort, 
but  merely  confined  himself  to  the  point  at 
issue.     I  referred  to  the  lady  who,  after  talk- 

109 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

ing  to  Littr6,  said,  "  Je  viens  de  parler  a  un 
saint  qui  ne  croit  pas  en  Dieu."  Mr.  Glad- 
stone laughed  and  said,  "  Yes;  but  I  have 
the  advantage  of  priority.  This  is  not  a 
case  of  Pereant  qui  nostra  ante  nos  dixerint. 
How  trying  that  sort  of  thing  is ! ' 

T. — ' '  Pereant  qui  nostra  post  nos  dixerint. 
This  seems  to  me  to  represent  a  state  of 
things  more  trying  still ; — when  one  has 
originated  an  idea,  and  some  more  conspicu- 
ous person  cribs  it,  and  gets  the  credit  for 
it." 

December  $oth,  1893. — It  may  be  conven- 
ient here  to  insert  some  notes  of  a  conversa- 
tion with  Mr.  Gladstone  with  which  a  learned 
divine,  who  lives  near  Biarritz,  has  kindly 
furnished  me: — 

"  Mr.  Gladstone  talked  a  little  on  the 
general  principles  of  Political  Economy. 
On  the  actual  distribution  of  wealth  he  felt 
uneasy,  and  he  thought  that  the  irresponsi- 
bility in  the  condition  of  holding  wealth 
nowadays,  especially  in  the  United  States, 
and  the  difficulty  or  impossibility  of  bring- 
ing home  to  men  the  responsibility  of  riches 
held  under  their  present  conditions,  was  the 
black  spot  in  the  future. 

no 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

"  The  history  of  Ireland,  he  said,  was  un- 
like that  of  any  other  nation.  The  oppres- 
sion of  it  by  England  had  not  been  the  op- 
pression of  a  race  who  had  once  been  con- 
querors or  dangerous;  like  that  of  the  Poles 
by  Russians,  or  of  the  Moors  by  Spaniards. 
The  Irish  had  done  nothing  to  warrant  the 
oppression;  they  were  only  reclaiming  that 
of  which  they  had  been  gratuitously  de- 
prived, and  we  owe  them  restoration  of  the 
theft. 

"  He  told  me  about  the  difficulty  which 
he  felt  in  making  his  ecclesiastical  appoint- 
ments; he  had  always  endeavoured  in  par- 
ishes to  find  the  best  man  to  carry  on  the 
work  on  the  general  lines  of  his  predecessor. 
He  was  anxious  not  to  appoint  a  High 
Churchman  to  a  Low  Church  parish,  nor 
vice  versd.  But  it  was  very  difficult  to  tell 
how  a  man  would  be  received,  or  how  he 
might  turn  out.  He  instanced  his  appoint- 
ment  of   Dr.    L to   the  parish  of . 

He  thought  that  he  had  got  the  very  man 
to  follow  a  good  evangelical,  with  hearty 
services.  To  his  surprise  he  received  a  depu- 
tation, with  the  late  incumbent  at  the  head, 
and  a  petition  with  2,000  signatures,  pro- 
testing against   the  appointment.     He    ap- 

iii 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

pealed   privately   to    Dr.    L to    resign, 

promising  some  compensatory  post,  and 
offering  pecuniary  indemnity  for  his  ex- 
penses.     But   Dr.  L said  that  he  had 

gone  too  far  to  retire  with  honour,  and  that 
his  friends  in  the  neighbourhood  assured 
him  that  the  opposition  was  factitious,  and 
that  the  majority  of  the  parish  was  not 
averse  to  him.  So  Mr.  Gladstone  yielded. 
A  year  afterwards  he  found  the  Doctor  most 
popular,  with  a  crowded  church,  hearty  ser- 
vices, and  not  above  twenty  malcontents  in 
the  parish. 

"  He  spoke  much  of  the  superficiality  of 
popular  writing  on  Theology,  and  of  the 
ordinary  sermons,  especially  those  of  the 
Low  Church  school.  The  teaching  was  so 
loose  and  vague;  it  gave  nothing  to  do,  no 
rule  of  conduct.  '  Only  believe  all  is  right 
with  you,  and  all  will  somehow  come  right 
at  the  last. '  Many  High  Churchmen  preached 
more  really  evangelical  sermons  than  the 
Low  Churchmen  did.  The  popular  teach- 
ing on  Eschatology  was  most  superficial. 
He  praised  Mr.  Oxenham's  book  on  the 
subject  much,  and  called  it  logical  and  con- 
vincing. Universalism  really  implied  dual- 
ism ;    and   it  was  no  vindication  to  say  that 

I  12 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

in  the  final  casting  up  of  accounts  the  bal- 
ance would  be  found  on  the  side  of  good. 
Annihilation  could  not  be  the  end.  The 
real  problem  was  that  of  the  origin  and 
existence  of  evil,  not  its  extinction  ;  and  this 
problem  was  wholly  insoluble  by  man.  The 
unfallen  angels  and  spirits  showed  that  evil 
was  not  a  necessity,  or  a  necessary  condition 
of  created  existence. 

'  He  agreed  that  all  human  knowledge 
was  relative ;  religious  knowledge  being  no 
more  absolute  than  any  other.  Newman 
was  not  great  as  a  philosopher;  but  in  spir- 
itual matters,  and  in  the  knowledge  of  and 
the  power  of  probing  the  human  heart.  He 
spoke  indignantly  of  the  prosecutions  of 
Ritualists  by  the  Church  Association.  They 
were  a  failure  always,  whether  won  or  lost. 
They  provoked  reaction,  and  produced  what 
they  were  intended  to  stop.  He  hoped  that 
there  would  be  no  more  of  them,  and  that 
the  bishops  would  stop  them  by  their  veto. 
In  answer  to  a  suggestion  that  there  should 
be  Standing  Committees  of  Convocation 
something  like  the  Congregations  and  the 
Holy  Office  at  Rome,  not  to  judge  individ- 
uals, but  to  decide  on  the  questions  and 
abstract  cases  submitted  to  them,  he  said 
8  113 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

that  the  difficulty  would  be  to  find  a  body 
of  theologians  in  the  English  Church  whose 
decisions  or  opinions  would  inspire  sufficient 
respect. 

"  He  was  asked  if  he  had  observed  the 
singular  absence  of  the  sense  of  sin  in  the 
works  of  American  divines  of  all  schools. 
*  Ah,'  said  he  slowly,  '  the  sense  of  sin — that 
is  the  great  want  in  modern  life;  it  is  want- 
ing in  our  sermons,  wanting  everywhere!' 
This  was  said  slowly  and  reflectively,  almost 
like  a  monologue. 

"  Then  he  talked  of  Driver's  criticism  of 
the  51st  Psalm  to  the  effect  that  it  could 
not  be  by  David  because  of  the  verse, 
'  Against  Thee,  Thee  only  have  I  sinned.' 
He  had  injured  Uriah  and  Bathsheba. 

"  G. — '  Where  sin  against  God  is  really 
felt,  that  absorbs  the  other.  Any  sin  against 
man  is  light  in  comparison  of  the  sin  against 
God.' 

"  He  agreed  that  Againt  Thee, etc.,  is  the 
correlative  of  Who  can  forgive  sins  but  God 
only  ? l 

Mr.     Gladstone's    attention    was    next 

1  Is  not  more  conclusive  evidence  of  the  post-Davidic,  or 
rather  post-Exilian,  date  of  the  Psalm  furnished  by  the 
phrase,  "  Build  Thou  the  walls  of  Jerusalem  "?  (L.  A.  T.) 

114 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

called  to  D.  G.  Azcarates'  Discurso  in  Span- 
ish at  the  Ateneo  of  Madrid.  The  writer 
speaks  of  Mr.  Gladstone  as  crowning  his 
unparalleled  career  by  bringing  home  the 
responsibilities  of  wealth  to  Londoners. 
Mr.  Gladstone  said  that  this  is  not  so  much 
needed  in  London  as  in  the  United  States: 
in  London  they  are  becoming  aware  of  the 
responsibility  attaching  to  riches." 

The  friend  who  has  supplied  me  with  the 
foregoing  materials  concludes  with  this  com- 
ment:— 

"  My  impressions  of  last  year  as  to  Mr. 
Gladstone's  earnest  piety,  immense  range  of 
thought  and  learning,  and  wonderful  phys- 
ical power,  and  of  the  persuasive  manage- 
ment of  his  voice,  were  but  heightened  this 
year.  He  would  have  been  a  great  theo- 
logian if  he  had  not  been  so  great  a  states- 
man." 

January  24th,  1894. — Mr.  and  Mrs.  Glad- 
stone dined  with  us. 

I  said  that  I  supposed  that  there  were 
more  means  for  the  endowment  of  research 
in  Germany  than  in  England.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone rejoined  that  he  thought  that  the 
collective    sum    from    which    such    men    as 

"5 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Wordsworth  and  Tennyson  received  pen- 
sions was  ,£30,000  a  year.  I  called  atten- 
tion to  the  increased  endowment  of  research 
at  Oxford.  He  spoke  of  it  as  strange  that 
in  no  other  country  were  there  such  large 
sums  for  the  endowment  of  education,  and 
yet  there  is  no  country  where  education  is 
so  expensive.  He  believed  that  Eton  was 
more  expensive  now  than  in  his  younger 
days,  and  that  Harrow  was  more  expensive 
still.  In  the  case  of  Eton,  the  modus  oper- 
andi of  the  change  was  through  the  masters 
more  and  more  encroaching  on  the  dames. 
Being  asked  whether  he  did  not  think  that 
the  reason  was  that  it  was  wished  to  make 
public  schools  the  especial  resort  of  gentle- 
men's sons,  he  said,  "No,  no;  it  is  very 
disgraceful,  but  not  quite  so  bad  as  that." 
I  quoted  Renan's  saying  to  the  effect  that 
there  is  no  second-rate  University  in  Ger- 
many, with  its  "  Professeurs  haves  et  fam6- 
liques, "  which  has  not  done  more  for  intel- 
lectual progress  than  the  great  aristocratic 
University  of  Oxford,  "  avec  ses  revenues 
immenses,  ses  colleges  splendides,  ses  Fel- 
lows paresseux."  He  did  not  agree.  "  I 
don't  believe  a  word  of  it,"  he  said.  In 
confirmation,  however,  of  Renan's  opinion, 

116 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

which  was  also  Mark  Pattison's,  I  will  quote 
a  passage  from  Bagehot,  who  considered  the 
Saturday  Review,  whose  contributors  in  his 
time  were  mainly  University  men,  to  be  a 
sort  of  thermometer  indicating  the  moral 
temperature  of  our  English  Universities. 
He  says  of  that  Journal: — 

"  We  may  search  and  search  in  vain 
through  this  repository  of  the  results  of 
University  teaching '  for  a  single  truth 
which  it  has  established,  for  a  single  high 
cause  which  it  has  advanced,  for  a  single 
deep  thought  which  is  to  sink  into  the  mind 
of  its  readers.  We  have,  indeed,  a  nearly 
perfect  embodiment  of  the  corrective  scepti- 
cism of  a  sleepy  intellect." 

Mr.  Gladstone  quoted  a  saying  of  Napo- 
leon from  Taine's  posthumous  volume:  "  Je 
ne  crois  pas  aux  religions;  mais  qui  a  fait 
tout  ceci?  .  .  .  les  pretres  valent  mieux 
que  les  Cagliostro,  les  Kant,  et  tous  les 
reveurs  d'Allemagne. "  He  chuckled  over 
the  reference  to  Kant.  He  said:  "  When 
next  I  see  Lord  Acton,  I  mean  to  quote  this 
to  him.  He  is  a  great  admirer  of  Kant's 
writings,  and  it  will  be  good  for  him  to  be 
told  what  Napoleon  thought  of  them  !  Gen- 
erally,   when    I    try   to    surprise    him    by  a 

117 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

quotation,  he  tells  me  exactly  where  it 
comes  from." 

He  repeated  a  passage  from  another  French 
writer  in  reference  to  Napoleon:  "  Nous 
avons  assez  entendu  parler  du  Fils  de 
l'Homme;  mais  Napoleon  etait  l'Homme 
lui-meme." 

G. — "  He  put  him  far  above  our  Saviour." 

The  book  increased  Mr.  Gladstone's  sense 
of  Napoleon's  supreme  greatness,  but  did 
not  raise  his  view  of  the  Emperor's  moral 
character. 

He  spoke  of  Pearson's  National  Life  and 
Character.  He  seemed  especially  interested 
in  the  author's  statement  that  the  crowding 
of  men  in  big  towns  may  force  on  State 
Socialism ;  but  he  agreed  with  me  that 
Pearson's  own  sympathies  were  in  favour 
of  Individualism,  State  Socialism  being  at 
best  a  necessary  evil.  I  objected  to  Pear- 
son's notion  that  Western  Europe  would 
ever  allow  itself  to  be  encroached  upon  and 
practically  overwhelmed  by  immigrants  from 
the  yellow  races.  Would  not  our  descend- 
ants defend  themselves  by  arms?  They 
might  vindicate  such  a  summary  proceeding 
by  saying  (in  dog  Latin)  sains  civilizationis, 
suprema   lex.       Mr.     Gladstone,     however, 

118 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

laughed  at  the  idea  of  our  descendants  tak- 
ing refuge  in  strong  measures:  "  If  the 
cultivated  races  cannot  defend  themselves 
without  appealing  to  brute  force,  God  help 
them !  " 

I  said  that  I  used  to  write  in  preference 
books,  that  I  wished  that  my  lot  could  have 
been  thrown  in  the  distant  future,  but  that 
now  I  am  satisfied  with  the  nineteenth 
century. 

G. — "  I  should  have  chosen  the  time  of 
Homer." 

We  spoke  of  the  conservative  tendency  of 
such  pessimistic  views  as  Pearson's ;  and  Mr. 
Gladstone  went  on  to  say  that  he  thought 
he  remembered  the  account  that  I  had  given 
of  my  own  views  in  my  article  on  my  father 
a  year  or  two  earlier,1  but  he  was  afraid  of 
misquoting  me.  I  replied  that  I  thought 
that  he  was  paying  me  the  greatest  possible 
compliment  in  remembering  anything  about 
it.  He  seemed  not  to  approve  of  my  Whig- 
gism.  I  explained  that  by  education,  tradi- 
tion and  temperament  I  am  strongly  Con- 
servative; but  that  I  call  myself  "  Conserva- 
tive,"   not   a  Conservative.       He   admitted 

'"Lord  Tollemache  and  His  Anecdotes,"  Fortnightly 
Review,  July  1892. 

119 


Talks  With   Mr.  Gladstone 

that  he  also  was  Conservative  in  a  certain 
sense.  I  spoke  of  the  Conservative  influ- 
ence of  ladies'  society.  He  demurred  to 
the  implied  statement  that  women  are  more 
Conservative  than  men.  He  should  rather 
describe  them  as  "  more  emotional."  He, 
however,  agreed  that  they  are  more  under 
the  influence  of  the  clergy.  I  spoke  of 
women's  influence  at  municipal  elections  and 
at  elections  for  the  school  board.  He 
doubted  whether  their  influence  is  Con- 
servative in  either  of  these  cases.  But  he 
said  that  the  women  chosen  are  scarcely 
typical  women.  I  quite  agreed;  but  I  ex- 
plained that  I  was  referring  to  the  influence 
of  the  many  women  who  vote  at  these  elec- 
tions, and  not  of  the  few  who  are  elected. 

From  clever  women  in  general,  the  con- 
versation passed  on  to  George  Eliot.  Mr. 
Gladstone  considered  her  rather  a  man 
than  a  woman.  Silas  Marncr  is  the  work  of 
hers  that  he  most  admired.  But  he  com- 
plained that  her  novels  "  were  out  of  tune." 
I  remarked  that  at  the  end  of  the  seventh  of 
the  eight  parts  in  which  Middlemarch  first 
appeared,  one  hoped  that  Dorothea  would 
marry  Lydgate.  Mr.  Gladstone  intimated 
his  assent. 

120 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

He  told  me  that  his  great  admiration  for 
Scott  was  tempered  by  regret  that  he  was 
weighed  down  by  so  much  inferior  work. 
A  similar  criticism  he  applied  to  Shake- 
speare, though  in  a  less  degree.  I  spoke 
of  Lord  Lytton's  portraiture  (in  the  Last  of 
the  Barons)  of  Gloucester  (Richard  III.),  and 
especially  of  Warwick,  as  more  lifelike  than 
Shakespeare's.  To  my  surprise  Mr.  Glad- 
stone seemed  not  to  know  who  the  last  of 
the  Barons  was.  He  pleaded  that  it  was 
doubtful  whether  the  latter  part  of  Henry  VI. 
was  by  Shakespeare,  but  admitted  that  there 
is  something  very  arbitrary  in  the  way  in 
which  critics  decide  by  internal  evidence 
what  is  Shakespeare's  and  what  is  not. 

He  said  that  his  favourites  among  Scott's 
novels  were  Kenilworth  and  the  Bride  of 
Lammermoor .  I  asked  whether  he  did  not 
find  the  bad  endings  of  these  two  novels 
depressing. 

G. — "  I  don't  mind  that  in  such  works  of 
art  as  these." 

I  told  him  that  the  Bride  of  Lammermoor 
was  also  Jowett's  favourite. 

G. — "  I  am  very  glad  to  hear  it;  and  I 
will  quote  the  statement  on  your  authority. " 
He  went  on  to  say  that  the  three  novels  of 

121 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Scott  which  are  generally  the  most  popular 
are  Ivanhoe,  Old  Mortality  and  Waver  ley. 
He  ranked  those  next  to  the  two  others. 
Returning  to  George  Eliot,  he  surprised  me 
by  saying  that  he  had  never  read  Daniel 
Deronda.  Something  was  said  about  George 
Eliot's  enthusiasm  for  the  Jews,  which  at 
last  became  almost  as  vehement  as  Disraeli's. 
Both  these  writers  sometimes  leave  the  im- 
pression of  looking  forward  to  the  restora- 
tion of  the  old  Hebrew  Monarchy.  Might 
they  not  (adapting  Virgil)  have  taken  for 
their  motto:  Jam  rcdit  et  David,  redeunt 
Solomonia  regna  ? 

Hence  we  drifted  into  the  Germans'  hatred 
of  the  Jews. 

G. — "  I  used  to  think  the  Irish  the  most 
oppressed  people  on  earth ;  but  now  I  think 
that  the  Jews  have  been  even  more  op- 
pressed. I  believe  that  Dollinger  wrote  in 
favour  of  the  Jews;  and  I  thought  it  very 
creditable  of  him  to  do  so.  I  understand 
that  the  kings  in  the  Middle  Ages,  including 
even  King  John,  often  took  the  part  of  the 
Jews  against  the  nobles.  Was  it  because 
they  wished  to  save  the  Jews  from  oppres- 
sion? Nothing  of  the  sort.  But  they  con- 
sidered that  the  right  to  torture  a  Jew  and 

122 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

to  extort  money  from  him  ought  to  be  a 
monopoly  of  their  own."  He  did  not  deny 
that  the  Jews  had  their  faults.  After  prais- 
ing Finlay's  History  in  high  terms,  he  said 
that  he  had  there  learnt  that  towards  the  end 
of  the  Middle  Ages  the  Greek  Christians  had 
a  bad  time  of  it;  for,  while  the  Mahometans 
hated  them  as  infidels,  and  the  Catholics 
hated  them  as  heretics,  the  Jews  took  ad- 
vantage of  their  weakness  to  settle  old  scores 
with  them. 

G. — "  Lord  Acton  is  writing  a  history  of 
Liberty,  and  I  shall  be  anxious  to  see  how 
he  will  treat  the  question  of  the  Jews." 

T. — "  In  writing  such  a  work,  is  he  not 
likely  to  get  into  trouble  with  the  Roman 
authorities?  " 

G. — "  His  work  may  be  put  on  the  Index  ; 
but  that  is  all.  They  will  never  excom- 
municate an  English  Peer.  I  always  say 
that,  if  Lord  Acton  had  written  what  Bol- 
linger has  written,  and  vice  versd,  it  would 
still  have  been  the  Professor  who  would  have 
got  into  trouble,  while  the  Peer  would  have 
escaped  scot  free." 

We  talked  about  the  old  Greeks. 

G. — "  I  am  a  great  admirer  of  the  old 
Olympian  religion,  as  it  was  set  forth  by  the 

123 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

supreme  genius  of  Homer.  It  was  quite 
different  in  the  hands  of  the  later  Greeks; 
and  the  mythology  of  the  Roman  poets 
serves  as  an  opaque  curtain  which  hides  it 
from  us.  Do  the  Romans  mark  the  differ- 
ence between  Venus  and  Diana,  as  the 
Greeks  do  between  Aphrodite  and  Artemis? 
Look  at  the  contrast  between  Virgil  and 
Homer!" 

T. — "  Surely  Virgil  does  not  write  much 
about  Diana? " 

G. — "  He  has  the  line: 

'Tergeminamque  Hecaten,  tria  virginis  ora  Dianas.' 

See,  too,  how  Horace  confounds  Diana  with 
Proserpine  in  the  passage  : 

'  Infernis  neque  enim  tenebris  Diana  pudicum 
Liberat  Hippolytum.'" 

I  suggested  that  in  this  instance  Horace 
seemed  to  me  to  refer  to  Diana,  not  as 
identical  with  Proserpine,  but  as  the  god- 
dess whom  Hippolytus  especially  wor- 
shipped. Mr.  Gladstone  frankly  said  that 
this  was  a  new  idea  to  him,  but  that  he 
would  think  it  over. 

He  supposed  that  Horace,  though  his 
Odes   were    Greek    in    form,    was   the   best 

124 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

authority  for  the  state  of  Roman  society  in 
classical  times.  But  the  discrepancies  in  his 
account  are  a  puzzle.  Sometimes  he  writes 
in  glowing  language;  at  other  times  he 
speaks  of  the  state  of  society  as  hopelessly 
corrupt.  Mr.  Gladstone  could  not  accept 
the  common  interpretation  of 

"O  utinam  nova 
Incude  dirfingas  retusam  in 

Massagetas  Arabasque  ferrum." 

This  he  explained  to  mean:  "  Break  up  our 
corrupt  civilisation,  and  remould  us  after  the 
fashion  of  barbarous  tribes."  I  demurred 
to  this  explanation ;  but,  in  support  of  it,  I 
reminded  him  of  the  Arva  beata,  etc.,  which 
seems  to  have  partly  suggested  the  passage 
in  Locksley  Hall,  beginning — 

"  Ah,  for  some  retreat 
Deep  in  yonder  shining  Orient." 

Another  passage  which  he  thought  wrongly 
interpreted  is — 

"  Nee  fortuitum  spernere  caespitem 
Leges  sinebant." 

G. — "  I  do  not  think  there  is  any  point  in 
the  rendering  '  chance  turf.'     What  would 

125 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

they  do  with  it?  Not  build.  Conington 
suggests  that  they  might  make  their  roofs 
of  it.  I  know  that  they  so  construct  their 
roofs  in  Iceland  and  elsewhere,  where  it  is 
hard  to  get  wood.  But  otherwise  I  do  not 
think  that  they  would  make  their  roofs  of 
turf  alone.  I  think  it  refers  to  the  enclosure 
of  commons,  and  so  it  touches  on  a  question 
which  has  lately  been  coming  to  the  front." 

I  asked  how  he  explained  "  spernere." 
He  said  that  it  meant  "  to  disregard  the 
laws  which  forbid  the  appropriation  of  the 
ager  publicus."  But  he  admitted  that  his 
view  was  not  free  from  difficulty. 

I  said  that  we  probably  learn  as  much 
about  Roman  society  from  Juvenal,  though 
his  account  must  be  taken  as  a  caricature; 
and  I  added  that,  as  Matthew  Arnold  says, 
we  gather  from  Marcus  Aurelius  that  there 
must  have  been  a  large  portion  of  Italian 
life  free  from  the  corruption  which  Juvenal 
describes.     Mr.  Gladstone  quite  agreed. 

We  talked  about  Mr.  Gladstone's  Ro- 
manes Lecture.  I  told  him  that  in  that 
lecture  he  appeared  to  me  to  ignore  the 
great  progress  in  jurisprudence  made  by 
the  Romans  under  the  Empire;  and  that, 
on  the  other  hand,  he  laid  too  great,  or  at 

126 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

any  rate  too  exclusive,  stress  on  their  prog- 
ress in  arms.  He  replied  by  calling  my 
attention  to  the  military  achievements  of 
Belisarius  and  Narses.  But  I  confess  that 
he  seemed  to  me  to  be  ascribing  to  progress 
in  the  military  art  what  was  rather  due  to 
the  military  genius  of  a  few  individuals.  I 
quoted  what  Maine,  in  his  Ancient  Law, 
said  about  the  great  development  of  juris- 
prudence under  the  Roman  Empire. 

G. — "  I  give  way  on  this  point  to  the 
authority  of  such  an  expert  as  Maine.  But 
in  the  lecture  I  was  trying  to  insist  that  life 
had  departed  from  the  Roman  civilisation. 
What  remarkable  men  did  that  civilisation 
produce? " 

I  mentioned  Claudian. 

G. — "  Yes,  but  that  is  not  saying  much. 
I  think  that  the  decline  of  paganism  has 
never  been  sufficiently  explained.  Gibbon's 
account  is  too  one-sided.  I  wish  it  could 
have  been  discussed  by  such  a  writer  as 
Hallam."  He  spoke  in  praise  of  Beugnot's 
Decadence  du  Paganisme  en  Occident.  Beu- 
gnot  also  wrote  a  Decadence  en  Orient,  but  it 
was  not  so  good.  The  former  book  was 
Couronne'e  par  V Acadtmie  francaise  in  1826. 
"  This  is  not  much  of  a  distinction  now,  but 

127 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

it  was  then."  He  spoke  of  the  long  resist- 
ance offered  by  Paganism  to  Christianity. 

G. — "  Probably  many  of  the '  pagani '  were 
devout  pagans,  and  there  seem  to  have  been 
also  some  devout  pagans  among  the  edu- 
cated classes.  But  these  latter  were  few; 
and  Beugnot  traces  the  different  causes,  such 
as  historical  and  family  traditions,  and  more 
interested  motives,  which  prolonged  the  life 
of  dying  Paganism." 

T. — "  Besides  the  believers  in  Paganism, 
were  there  not  many  who  bore  to  Paganism 
the  same  sort  of  relation  that  Matthew 
Arnold  bore  to  Christianity?  I  refer  to 
such  men  as  Marcus  Aurelius,  who  thought 
it  important  that  the  masses  should  have  a 
religion,  and  who  held  that  the  best  religion 
for  them  was  the  religion  of  the  State.  Such 
men  would  probably  have  wished  to  purify 
the  national  religion  of  some  of  its  coarser 
elements;  but,  in  general,  they  would  be 
afraid,  to  use  Bright's  metaphor,  of  tinkering 
an  old  institution." 

G. — "  Very  likely  there  were  a  good  num- 
ber of  these;  and  the  position  of  Marcus 
Aurelius  may  in  some  respects  have  been 
like  that  of  Matthew  Arnold.  But  Marcus 
Aurelius  did  not  write  about  his  religion  in 

128 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  patronising  way  in  which  Matthew  Ar- 
nold writes  about  Christianity.  I  know 
nothing  that  jars  me  more  than  the  tone  he 
takes." 

T. — "  Was  not  that  partly  the  peculiar 
manner  of  the  man?" 

G. — "  It  may  have  been  ;  but  I  often  wish 
that  he  would  make  his  bow  and  walk  on 
the  other  side.  To  come  back  to  my  Ro- 
manes Lecture:  my  object  was  to  combat 
Pattison's  statement  that  the  extinction  of 
the  Pagan  civilisation  by  the  Church  was  a 
great  calamity." 

T. — "  I  suspect  that  Pattison,  if  pressed, 
would  have  explained  his  words  to  mean 
that  it  is  deplorable  that  human  nature  is 
such  a  poor  thing  that  it  cannot  maintain  its 
civilisation  on  a  rational  and  progressive 
footing,  and  that  it  is  forced  from  time  to 
time  to  fall  back  on  supernaturalism." 

January  29th,  1894. — I  dined  with  Mr. 
Gladstone.  He  expressed  great  interest  in 
the  customs  of  the  Basques,  and  in  the  un- 
solved riddle  of  the  origin  of  their  race  and 
language.  Had  not  Scaliger  satirically  ex- 
claimed :  "  The  Basques  say  that  they  under- 
stand one  another,  but  they  lie  !  '  Mr.  Glad- 
9  129 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

stone  seemed  especially  taken  with  the 
popular  myth  explanatory  of  the  high 
morality  common  among  them:  "The  Devil 
took  seven  years  trying  to  learn  Basque,  and 
at  last  gave  it  up  as  a  bad  job. ' '  A  saying  of 
Basque  origin  seemed  equally  quaint,  though 
in  a  different  fashion:  "  Our  Lord  promised 
to  give  St.  Peter  a  horse  if  he  would  repeat 
the  Lord's  prayer  without  pause  or  inter- 
polation. Whereupon  St.  Peter  began: 
'  Pater  noster  qui  es  in  cxlis  ' —  And,  Lord, 
will  he  have  a  saddle?  " 

Mr.  Gladstone  had  been  reading  a  lecture 
on  the  sanitary  rules  followed  by  the  Jews. 
I  said  that  I  had  been  told  that  in  England 
they  were  less  long-lived  than  Christians. 
His  impression  was  the  other  way.  He  said 
that  they  had  a  special  immunity  from  tuber- 
cular disease.  Reference  was  made  to  a 
quondam  Professor  whose  too  catholic  antip- 
athies were  especially  directed  against  the 
Jewish  race  and  modern  Liberals;  and  one 
of  the  party  reported  that  this  Ishmael,  on 
being  told  that  the  Jews  had  a  remarkable 
immunity  from  cholera,  drily  exclaimed, 
"  That  is  the  worst  thing  I  have  heard  of 
the  cholera!  " 

G.  (smiling} — "  He  hates  the  Jews  as  much 

130 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

as  he  hates  me."  The  genial  tone  of  this 
remark  may  serve  to  show  that  Mr.  Glad- 
stone was  not  as  abnormally  sensitive  to 
adverse  criticism  as  he  was  often  said  to  be. 

He  did  not  take  the  same  high  view  that 
many  take  of  the  old  Hebrew  literature, 
regarded  merely  as  literature.  He  had  been 
struck  by  a  statement  of  Professor  Max 
Miiller  to  the  effect  that  the  Jewish  intellect 
made  a  sudden  start  after  being  brought  in 
contact  with  the  Aryan  intellect.  (Surely 
Isaiah  was  an  exception.)  He  did  not  think 
much  of  the  old  biblical  heroes,  except 
Moses.  I  hinted  at  a  scepticism  about  Moses 
being  a  real  person.  He  said  that  he  thought 
that,  if  there  had  been  no  historical  Moses, 
the  Hebrew  imagination  would  not  have 
been  equal  to  the  task  of  creating  one.  And 
then  he  went  off  to  his  favourite  subject. 

G. — "  Those  who  think  it  too  great  a 
miracle  that  there  should  have  been  a  Homer 
who  wrote  both  the  Iliad  and  the  Odyssey, 
are  substituting  for  it  a  miracle  yet  greater 
and  yet  harder  of  belief." 

I  remarked  that,  if  the  word  ajuv/toov  really 
means  "  blameless,"  it  seems  very  odd  that 
in  the  beginning  of  the  Odyssey  this  epithet 
is   applied    to  vEgisthus.      He   replied    that 

131 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

"  blameless  is  a  very  inadequate  rendering 
of  the  word.  It  may  sometimes  mean  this; 
but  sometimes  also  it  connotes  high  birth; 
'  just  as  we  apply  the  word  '  illustrious  '  to 
princes — to  such  princes  as  the  sons  of 
George  III.  There  are  other  expressions 
in  Homer  which  we  were  taught  to  translate 
either  incorrectly  or  in  too  narrow  a  sense ; 
for  instance,  at  Eton,  Edward  Coleridge 
insisted  on  our  translating  avaB,   avdpwv, 

king  of  men. 

I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  why  he  had  not 
ranked  Rob  Roy  with  those  novels  of  Walter 
Scott  which  he  placed  in  the  first  rank.  He 
thought  that  Rob  Roy  and  Guy  Mannering 
ran  them  very  hard.  He  was  surprised  when 
I  mentioned  that  Lowe  had  ranked  St. 
Ronan  s  Well  with  the  Bride  of  Lammer- 
moor.  He  agreed  with  me  that  this  was  an 
instance  of  the  peculiar  limitation  which  is 
so  often  found  in  men  of  strong  individ- 
uality. I  asked  whether  he  admired  Miss 
Austen  much. 

G. — "  Certainly.  But  I  am  not  so  enthu- 
siastic about  her  as  some  people  are.  An 
old  friend  of  mine,  Rio  (he  is  long  since 
dead),  complained  that  Macaulay '  can  neither 
dive  nor  soar.'     This  is  true  of  Jane  Austen. 

132 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Someone  said  of  Randolph  Churchill  (it  was 
only  true  of  him  in  his  earlier  days),  that  '  he 
was  a  first-rate  actor  in  a  third-rate  piece.' 
This  also  might  be  said  of  Miss  Austen." 

T. — "  Walter  Scott  has  spoken  of  himself 
as  successful  in  the  bow-wow  strain,  while 
Miss  Austen  excelled  in  the  representation 
of  everyday  life." 

G. — "  That  is  Walter  Scott's  modest  way 
of  putting  things.  He  was  generosity  itself. 
In  all  those  volumes  of  his  there  is  a  com- 
plete absence  of  self-laudation.  After  all, 
Miss  Austen  was  parochial,  while  Scott  was 
world-historical — Welt-historisch,  as  the  Ger- 
mans would  say." 

I  complained  that  some  of  Miss  Austen's 
characters  seemed  to  me  wooden ;  they  con- 
trast in  that  way  with  some  of  Miss  Ferrier's. 

G. — "  Which  of  Miss  Ferrier's  have  you 
read?  " 

T.—  "Marriage." 

G. — "You  should  read  her  Inheritance. 
It  is  far  her  best.  She  had  the  great  advan- 
tage of  writing  in  the  interval  between 
the  earlier  and  the  later  school  of  novel- 
ists. 

Mr.  Gladstone  ranked  Disraeli  as  the 
greatest   master  of  parliamentary  wit    that 

133 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

had  ever  been.  He  looked  upon  his  char- 
acter as  a  great  mystery,  and  it  pained  him 
to  feel  that  the  mystery  will  never  be  solved. 
He  quoted  Bright's  remark  on  the  repre- 
sentation of  minorities  :  "  If  the  member  for 
a  minority  dies,  will  the  minority  have  the 
power  of  electing  his  successor?  "  This  Mr. 
Gladstone  thought  a  perfectly  fair  criticism, 
well  expressed.  He  said  that  Disraeli  dis- 
liked the  idea  of  representation  of  minorities ; 
but  he  introduced  it'into  his  Reform  Bill  as 
a  sop  to  political  doctrinaires.  Afterwards, 
when  the  House  of  Lords  amended  his  Re- 
form Bill  and  made  it  practically  a  nominal 
measure,  Disraeli  threw  out  all  their  amend- 
ments with  the  exception  of  this  one,  which, 
though  he  disliked  it,  he  thought  compara- 
tively unimportant.  Mr.  Gladstone  thought 
that  the  wittiest  thing  which  Bright  ever 
said  was  when  he  spoke  of  the  party  which 
formed  the  Cave  of  Adullam  as  being  like  a 
Skye  terrier:  "  it  was  so  covered  with  hair 
that  you  could  not  tell  its  head  from  its 
tail."1     The  leading  members  of  the  Cave 

1  It  is  well  known  that  the  christening  of  the  party  as 
"  The  Cave  of  Adullam  "  was  also  due  to  Bright  ;  but  it 
is  less  well  known  that,  in  making  the  comparison,  he  was  in 
a  manner  anticipated  by  Mr.  Gladstone's  favourite  novelist : 
"  The  Baron  of  Bradwardine,  being  asked  what  he  thought 

134 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

were  Lowe  and  Horsman,  the  latter  of  whom 
Mr.  Gladstone  described  as  "  a  mere  wind- 
bag." He  added  that  Bright  meant  to  im- 
ply that  both  these  members  uttered  such 
platitudes  that  those  of  Lowe  were  on  a  par 
with  those  of  Horsman.  Mr.  Gladstone 
spoke  of  Lowe's  inability  to  defend  him- 
self. 

G. — "  The  power  of  self-defence  is  im- 
planted in  the  meanest  of  all  creatures  (I 
don't  know  whether  it  exists  in  rabbits). 
But  at  anyrate  it  was  absent  in  Lowe.  He, 
who  had  attacked  our  Reform  Bill  so  power- 
fully, was  quite  helpless  when  such  an  in- 
ferior  man    as   attacked  him.     Dizzy 

quite  cut  him  to  pieces.  In  one  way  this 
told  morally  in  his  favour.  A  member  of  a 
Government  is  bound  to  defend  his  col- 
leagues as  much  as  himself;  and,  as  Lowe 
did  not  defend  his  colleagues,  it  told  in  his 
favour  that  he  also  did  not  defend  him- 
self." 

of  these  recruits,  took  a  long  pinch  of  snuff,  and  answered 
drily,  that  he  could  not  but  have  an  excellent  opinion  of 
them,  since  they  resembled  precisely  the  followers  who 
attached  themselves  to  the  good  King  David  at  the  cave  of 
Adullam  ;  videlicet,  everyone  that  was  in  distress,  every- 
one that  was  in  debt,  and  everyone  that  was  discontented, 
which  the  Vulgate  renders  bitter  of  soul." 

135 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

The  wittiest  thing  that  Mr.  Gladstone  ever 
heard  in  Parliament  was  a  retort  of  Lord 
John  Russell.  Sir  Francis  Burdett  had  been 
a  strong  Radical;  and,  as  is  well  known,  he 
got  into  trouble  about  it.  After  some  years, 
he  became  a  Conservative.  Mr.  Gladstone 
doubted  whether  his  inconsistency  was  as 
great  as  it  seemed  to  be.  But  at  anyrate 
it  brought  him  into  opposition  with  his  old 
colleagues.  He  made  a  rather  violent  speech, 
in  which  he  said  there  was  nothing  he  hated 
so  much  as  the  "  cant  of  patriotism."  Lord 
John  Russell  got  up  and  said  that,  for  him- 
self, there  was  one  thing  that  he  hated  worse, 
and  that  was  "  the  recant  of  patriotism." 

The  best  thing  said  in  Parliament  in  this 
century  was,  Mr.  Gladstone  thought,  a  sen- 
tence of  Canning.  Pitt  had  been  a  Free 
Trader;  but  in  his  later  life  he  took  a  line 
which  naturally  made  the  Tories  claim  him 
as  a  Protectionist.  Canning  was  thoroughly 
devoted  to  his  old  master,  and  used  to  say 
that  his  allegiance  was  with  Pitt  in  his  tomb. 
He  said  of  those  Protectionists  who  appealed 
to  the  authority  of  Pitt:  "They  are  like 
those  savages  who  pay  no  honour  to  the  sun 
when  he  is  in  his  meridian  splendour,  but 
who,  when  he  is  under  a  momentary  eclipse, 

x36 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

come  forth  with  cymbals  and  dances  to  adore 
him."  l 

Canning  was  an  adept  in  such  rhetorical 
outbursts.  Some  forty  years  ago,  I  heard 
an  old  gentleman,  in  a  speech  at  an  agricul- 
tural dinner,  quote  with  great  admiration  the 
following  sentence  Avhich  in  his  youth  he  had 
heard  from  Canning's  own  lips  : — "  The  same 
sun  which  lighted  Lord  Wellington  into 
Madrid  and  which  grew  pale  at  the  confla- 
gration of  Moscow,  has  yielded  us  the  most 
luxuriant  harvest  that  has  ever  blessed  man- 
kind." Surely  this  rhetoric  is  overstrained. 
If  it  is  not  mere  verbiage,  it  implies  that  the 
stars  in  their  courses  had  fought  against 
Napoleon ;  and  it  seems  to  postulate  such  a 
belief  in  the  anthropomorphic  and  anthropo- 

1  A  few  days  later  Mr.  Gladstone,  at  my  request,  most 
kindly  repeated  his  version  of  Canning's  metaphor,  and 
then  let  me  repeat  it  to  him  ;  so  that  my  account  of  that 
version  is  certainly  correct.  It  differs  slightly  from  the 
ordinary  version,  which  is  as  follows  :  "  Such  perverse 
worship  is  like  the  idolatory  of  barbarous  nations,  who  can 
see  the  noonday  splendour  of  the  sun  without  emotion, 
but,  when  he  is  in  eclipse,  come  forward  with  their  hymns 
and  cymbals  to  adore  him."  Mr.  Gladstone's  version, 
however,  delivered  as  it  was  in  a  voice  far  more  sonorous 
and  rhetorical  than  was  his  wonted  conversation,  seems  to 
me  interesting  and  characteristic  ;  it  is,  as  it  were,  Canning 
Gladstonised. 

137 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

centric — I  had  almost  said  Anglo-centric — 
government  of  the  physical  world  as  is  in 
nowise  warranted  by  science. 

I  reminded  Mr.  Gladstone  of  the  saying 
of  Burke  about  Warren  Hastings,  which 
Macaulay  has  thus  recorded:  "  It  was  said 
that  at  Benares,  the  very  place  at  which  the 
acts  set  forth  in  the  first  article  of  impeach- 
ment had  been  committed,  the  natives  had 
erected  a  temple  to  Hastings;  and  this  story 
excited  a  strong  sensation  in  England. 
Burke's  observations  on  the  apotheosis  were 
admirable.  He  saw  no  reason  for  astonish- 
ment, he  said,  in  the  incident  which  had 
been  represented  as  so  striking.  He  knew 
something  of  the  mythology  of  the  Brah- 
mins. He  knew  that,  as  they  worshipped 
some  gods  from  love,  so  they  worshipped 
others  from  fear.  He  knew  that  they  erected 
shrines,  not  only  to  the  benignant  deities  of 
light  and  plenty,  but  also  to  the  fiends  who 
preside  over  small-pox  and  murder.  Nor 
did  he  at  all  dispute  the  claim  of  Mr.  Hast- 
ings to  be  admitted  into  such  a  Pantheon." 

G. — "  Did  Burke  say  that  on  the  spur  of 
the  moment?  " 

T. — "  I  do  not  know;  but  probably  he 
did  not." 

138 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  That  makes  all  the  difference.  If  I 
am  asked  who  is  the  greatest  speaker  that 
I  have  known  in  Parliament,  I  answer  that 
it  depends  on  what  you  mean  by  a  great 
speaker.  No  one  was  equal  to  Bright  when 
he  had  time  to  prepare  a  subject.  But  he 
was  not  strong  as  a  debater,  though  I  once 
remember  his  being  very  successful  in  de- 
bate. I  think  it  was  about  Ireland;  but  I 
am  not  sure.  I  once  had  an  odd  experience. 
It  was  found  convenient  that  I,  as  leader  of 
the  party,  should  make  a  speech  from 
Bright's  notes.  I  will  mention  another  small 
experience  that  I  had.  Ayrton  was  often  a 
very  troublesome  opponent  in  debate.  I 
remember  once  that  at  three  o'clock  in  the 
morning  he  was  going  to  attack  me.  I  saw 
him  go  out  of  the  House  to  eat  an  orange, 
and  knew  that  probably  meant  an  hour's 
speech.  This  was  too  much,  and  I  beat  a 
prudent  retreat.  As  you  take  an  interest  in 
these  Parliamentary  reminiscences,  I  will 
give  you  another.  The  Conservatives  ap- 
pointed Lord  Glenelg  to  a  high  official  posi- 
tion. He  was  thoroughly  honourable,  but 
was  supposed  to  be  inefficient,  and  had  a 
way  of  falling  asleep  during  debates.  In  the 
course  of  a  very  exciting  debate,  Brougham 

139 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

in  the  House  of  Lords  expressed  regret  that 
he  and  his  party  had  deprived  the  noble 
Lord  of  so  many  sleepless  days.  I  reminded 
Brougham  of  this  afterwards,  and  was  glad 
to  find  that  he  had  quite  forgotten  it.  It 
showed  that  his  wit  was  so  abundant  that  he 
could  afford  to  forget  particular  instances 
of  it." 

T. — "  In  fact,  he  was,  in  Tennyson's 
phrase,  '  Like  wealthy  men  who  know  not 
when  they  give.'  " 

I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  about  Peel;  he  did 
not  seem  to  have  left  on  record  many  witty 
sayings. 

G. — "  No;  Peel  was  not  a  phrase-maker, 
like  Disraeli  or  Bright.  There  were  two 
things  especially  conspicuous  about  him. 
One  was  his  overmastering  sense  of  public 
duty;  this  never  deserted  him.  The  other 
thing  was  his  sense  of  measure.  He  had 
generally  an  exact  sense  of  the  proportion 
between  one  Bill,  and  the  general  policy  of 
the  Government;  also  of  the  proportion  be- 
tween the  different  parts  of  the  same  Bill; 
and  of  the  relation  in  which  the  leaders  of 
his  party  stood  to  their  followers.  What  I 
mean  by  this  sense  of  measure  will  be  under- 
stood if  I  give  an  instance  in  which  such  tact 

140 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

was  conspicuously  wanting.  Shortly  (I  think) 
after  the  Reform  Bill,  the  Conservative 
leaders  had  got  the  party  into  a  state  of 
what  seemed  hopeless  confusion.  So  much 
so  that  one  night  they  were  preparing  to 
send  in  their  resignation.  Fortunately  for 
them,  Lord  Grey  made  an  attack  on  the 
party  as  a  whole.  This  so  irritated  the  fol- 
lowers that  they  rallied  under  their  leaders, 
and  the  party  held  its  ground." 

I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  whether  Peel  was 
not  very  unsociable  in  private  life.  An  old 
M.P.  once  told  me  that,  when  he  dined  with 
Peel,  Peel  used  to  beset  him  with  questions, 
and  to  give  out  nothing  in  return. 

G. — "  Quite  right  too.  If  Peel  had  to  do 
with  someone  from  whom  useful  information 
could  be  got,  he  was  quite  right  to  try  and 
get  it.  If  he  was  wanting  in  sociability,  the 
reason  was  that  his  mind  was  too  full  of  the 
public  interest  to  be  able  to  occupy  itself 
with  smaller  matters." 

T. — "  But  surely  he  might  have  given  out 
something  on  non-political  matters;  for  ex- 
ample, on  literature  or  history." 

G. — "  He  sometimes  did.  I  remember 
his  praising  to  me  Hallam  as  a  historian. 
Also,  I  heard  him  express  a  low  opinion  of 

141 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Fox.  So  far  as  Fox's  private  character  is 
concerned,  Peel  may  have  been  right;  but, 
as  a  public  man,  Fox  had  certainly  a  remark- 
able power  of  grasping  general  principles." 

At  first  these  examples  of  Peel's  com- 
municativeness seemed  to  me  conspicuous 
by  their  slightness;  but  I  afterwards  reflected 
that,  according  to  Professor  Goldwin  Smith, 
"  For  personal  recollections  twenty-three 
years  are  Lethe";  and  that  twice  that  in- 
terval divided  us  from  the  point  of  time  to 
which  Mr.  Gladstone  was  reaching  back. 

Mr.  Gladstone  thought  that  there  was  a 
certain  resemblance  between  Rome  under 
Augustus  and  France  under  Louis  Napoleon. 
I  called  attention  to  the  resemblance  between 
the  two  Caesars  in  their  relation  to  one 
another,  and  the  two  Napoleons. 

G. — "  Yes.  The  resemblance  is  remark- 
able in  many  ways ;  though  Augustus  was 
much  wiser  in  his  generation  than  Louis 
Napoleon." 

T. — "  Was  not  Louis  Napoleon  wise  in 
his  generation  during  the  earlier  part  of  his 
career?  " 

G. — "  Certainly  not  from  the  time  of  the 
Mexican  expedition.  But  what  I  am  insist- 
ing on  as  a  point  of  resemblance  between  the 

142 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

two  despots  is  that,  while  Louis  Napoleon 
put  down  freedom  of  speech  and  of  writing 
in  general,  he  allowed  a  certain  freedom  to 
men  of  letters  who  were  not  likely  to  influ- 
ence the  public.  And  I  suspect  it  was  the 
same  sort  of  thing  with  Augustus.  So  long 
as  Horace  made  a  low  bow  to  the  established 
Government,  he  was  allowed  in  an  indirect 
way  to  show  his  sympathy  with  his  old  com- 
rades of  Philippi." 

T. — "  In  the  one  stanza,  Olim  Philippos, 
there  are  two  phrases  which  the  admirers  of 
Horace  try  to  explain  away.  Turpe  solum 
tetigere  mento,  and  relicta  noti  bene  parmula. 
It  is  said  that  no  Roman  soldier  would  have 
made  the  latter  admission.  But  surely  he 
meant  that  he  had  been  so  insignificant  an 
enemy,  that  the  conquerors  could  afford  to 
overlook  his  youthful  folly." 

G. — "  That  is  what  I  meant  by  the  low 
bow.  I  believe  that  Louis  Napoleon  was 
often  indulgent  to  Orleanist  men  of  letters 
who  veiled  their  meaning." 

T. — "  Did  you  personally  see  enough  of 
Louis  Napoleon  to  form  an  impression  of  his 
ability?  " 

G. — "  No.  I  dined  with  him  in  the  Tui- 
leries.     But  he  was  most  of  the  time  cross- 

143 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

questioning  me  about  English  finance." 
(He  said  this  with  a  smile  which  seemed  to 
mean,  If  Louis  Napoleon  thus  cross-examined, 
why  should  not  Peel  ?)  ' '  The  conversation 
was  in  English,  which  he  spoke  very  well. 
I  saw  him  again  during  his  exile.  But  I 
found  him  then  a  broken  man,  and  could 
not  judge  of  his  ability." 

We  spoke  about  Froude,  and  the  question 
was  raised  whether,  after  all,  it  had  been  a 
mistake  to  confer  on  him  the  Professorship 
of  History.  Was  not  such  a  style  as  Froude's 
a  supreme  merit  in  a  Professor?  His  facts 
might  be  often  inaccurate;  but  they  were 
certainly  far  less  so  than  the  facts  introduced 
into  Scott's  novels;  and  yet  Scott's  novels 
are  valued  as  carrying  a  picturesque  concep- 
tion of  the  past  into  quarters  where  other- 
wise there  would  be  no  conception  of  it  at 
all.  Scott's  Richard  I.  is  more  of  a  per- 
manent possession,  more  of  a  living  person, 
than  Hume's.  Is  it  not  possible  that,  in 
like  manner,  some  of  Froude's  historical 
portraits  will  survive  Freeman's? 

Mr.  Gladstone  spoke  severely  of  the  pecul- 
iar bias  shown  by  Froude  with  regard  to 
Henry  VIII.  We  got  on  the  charm  of 
Froude's  diction  as  contrasted  with  Grote's, 

144 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  I  mentioned  the  substance  of  Charles 
Austin's  comment  on  Grote,  which  is  thus 
reported  in  Safe  Studies  :  "  He  feared  that 
the  History  of  Greece  lost  much  of  its  value 
through  the  attempt  to  whitewash  Cleon  and 
the  other  demagogues.  He  also  regretted 
that  Mr.  Grote  had  bestowed  so  little  pains 
on  his  style;  an  inattention  which  seemed 
to  Mr.  Austin  all  the  more  strange  as  the 
historian  was  keenly  alive  to  the  grace  and 
charm  of  the  classical  writings.  He  was 
afraid  that,  in  consequence  of  these  two 
defects,  the  history  of  Greece  still  remains 
to  be  written." 

Mr.  Gladstone  said  that  he  had  heard 
Grote  find  fault  with  the  English  of  John 
Mill.  I  said  that  I  thought  that  Grote  may 
have  been  very  particular  in  avoiding  slip- 
shod sentences. 

G. — "  But  are  there  any  such  sentences  in 
Mill?" 

T. — "  I  should  think  very  few;  but  I  re- 
member seeing  one  or  two  quoted  by  Pro- 
fessor Hodgson  in  his  Errors  in  the  Use  of 
English. 

Mr.  Gladstone  did  not  seem  to  have  heard 
of  this  book.  I  mentioned  that  its  author 
had  marshalled  a  long  array  of  blunders  from 
10  i45 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

various  writers,  great  and  small ;  and  I  told 
Mr.  Gladstone  of  two  instances  given  by 
Hodgson  of  the  wrong  collocation  of  words: 
— "  Erected  to  the  memory  of  John  Phillips 
accidentally  shot  as  a  mark  of  affection  by 
his  brother;"  and  "  A  piano  for  sale  by  a 
lady  about  to  cross  the  Channel  in  an  oak 
case  with  carved  legs."  Mr.  Gladstone 
seemed  much  amused  by  these  examples. 
In  reference  to  the  general  question,  he 
thought  that  a  sentence  ought  not  to  bear 
more  than  one  construction,  and  he  quoted 
the  familiar  Aio  te,  ALacide,  Romanos  vincere 
posse. 

Mr.  Gladstone  spoke  playfully  of  a  lady 
as  his  step-great-niece;  and  asked  what  I 
made  of  such  a  relation.  I  said  in  a  like 
tone  that,  Queen  Charlotte  having  been  god- 
mother of  my  mother-in-law,  I  have  some- 
times spoken  of  George  III.  as  my  step-god- 
grand-father-in-law. 

G.  {with  a  smile). — "I  was  going  to  say 
that  I  wished  you  a  better  step-god — I  for- 
get the  rest; — but  I  draw  a  distinction. 
George  III.  in  his  private  character  shows  to 
advantage  when  compared  with  Charles  II. 
or  George  II.  But,  if  George  III.  had  suc- 
ceeded   in    repressing   freedom    and    parlia- 

146 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

mentary  government,  we  should  have  had 
a  Revolution,  not  probably  so  bad  as  the 
French,  but  resembling  it  in  kind.  From 
such  a  catastrophe  we  were  preserved  by 
that  unworthy  representative  of  good  prin- 
ciples, Wilkes." 

We  referred  to  Macaulay's  praise  of  Wil- 
liam III.,  and  to  his  speaking  less  severely 
of  William's  private  faults  than  of  those  of 
James  II. 

G. — "  Of  course  it  was  as  a  public  man 
that  Macaulay  praised  William ;  but  I  have 
no  doubt  that  Macaulay's  bias  in  favour  of 
William  extended  to  everything  about  him. 

While  admiring  many  points  in  Miss  Chol- 
mondeley's  Diana  Tempest,  Mr.  Gladstone 
found  fault  with  that  clever  novel,  first,  be- 
cause he  thought  that  a  novel  with  an  abnor- 
mal plot  requires  very  exceptional  skill ;  and, 
secondly,  because  the  authoress  throws  satire 
broadcast  on  the  clergy  and  other  representa- 
tives of  tradition.  He  did  not  object  to 
Robert  Elsmere  on  this  ground,  because  the 
orthodox  Catherine  is  represented  as  narrow 
perhaps,  but  on  the  whole  an  ideal  character. 

We  spoke  of  the  Revised  Translation  of 
the  Bible.  He  said  that  he  had  advised  the 
translators  (or  some  of  them)  to  bring  out, 

147 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

at  an  early  stage,  a  few  specimens  of  their 
work  and  to  let  the  critics  say  their  say  about 
them.  To  anyone  versed  in  the  usages  of 
the  House  of  Commons  such  an  expedient 
would  not  seem  unnatural.  But  the  trans- 
lators utterly  refused  to  suffer  their  unfin- 
ished work  to  be  blown  on  by  the  popularis 
ora  of  inexperts:  "They  laughed  me  to 
scorn ;  and  the  result  has  been  that  the 
Revised  Version  died  almost  at  its  birth." 

I  think  it  was  on  this  occasion  that  Mr. 
Gladstone  made  a  remark  to  me  which  has 
been  treasured  up  in  my  memory.  Taking 
my  arm  as  we  left  the  dining-room,  he  said, 
"  Your  memory  makes  you  formidable;  but 
you  are  so  good-natured  that  one  does  not 
feel  afraid  of  you."  At  first  the  word 
"  afraid  "  employed  by  the  great  Statesman 
fairly  took  my  breath  away ;  I  felt  disposed 
to  say,  "  Quid  enim  contendat  hirundo 
Cycnis?  "  But,  on  second  thoughts,  I  inter- 
preted the  hyperbolical  compliment  to  mean, 
"  I  am  sure  that,  if  you  Boswellize  me,  you 
will  set  down  nought  in  malice."  In  other 
words,  he  more  than  suspected  that  I  was 
taking  notes  of  our  conversations.  It  is  as 
throwing  light  on  this  point  that  his  observa- 
tion seemed  to  me  worth  recording. 

148 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

January  i^tk,  1896. — Mr.  and  Mrs.  Glad- 
stone and  Mrs.  Drew  dined  with  us. 

He  remarked  on  our  being  in  the  same 
rooms  as  before. 

T. — "  You  see  I  have  strong  Conservative 
instincts." 

G. — "  So  have  I.  In  all  matters  of  cus- 
tom and  tradition,  even  the  Tories  look 
upon  me  as  the  chief  Conservative  that  is." 

T. — "  Two  years  ago  a  Conservative  M.P. 
spoke  of  you  as  the  strongest  Conservative 
influence  in  Parliament.  This  being  so,  I 
wondered  why,  in  the  interests  of  Conser- 
vatism, he  did  not  join  your  party." 

Mr.  Gladstone  smiled  and  seemed  pleased. 

I  note,  in  passing,  that  my  Conservative 
friend  probably  regarded  Mr.  Gladstone  as 
the  best  controller  and  moderator  of  the 
political  changes  which  have  become  inevit- 
able •,  insomuch  that  the  English  Government 
under  his  guidance  might  be  compared  to 
the  Athenian  Government  under  the  guid- 
ance of  Pericles:  "  it  was  nominally  a  de- 
mocracy, but  in  reality  the  supremacy  of  the 
first  citizen"  (Xoycp  pitv  6t}fxoKpaTia  i'pycp 
Se  vno  rov  npwrov  avdpos  apxv)- 

He  spoke  with  high  praise  of  Purcell's  Life 
of  Manning.     He  said  it  was  the  "  history 

149 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

of  a  soul  and  the  dividing  of  bone  and  mar- 
row."  He  had  read  no  biography  for  some 
time  "  which  showed  so  much  impartiality 
and  insight."  I  asked  him  what  he  thought 
of  Manning  as  an  orator.  He  said  that  he 
had  heard  some  striking  sermons  of  Man- 
ning's while  Manning  was  still  in  the  Church 
of  England.  He  evidently  thought  much 
more  highly  of  Newman  as  a  master  of  Eng- 
lish; but  he  called  Manning  "a  great  Ec- 
clesiastical Statesman."  I  asked  him  about 
Cardinal  Vaughan. 

G. — "  Oh,  he  is  an  infinitely  smaller  man. 
I  am  reminded  of  Canning's  lines."  x 

This  suggested  the  appointment  of  Alfred 
Austin  as  successor  to  Alfred  Tennyson. 

T. — "  Was  it  not  a  pity  appointing  a  new 
laureate?  The  office  is  now  altogether  some- 
thing of  an  anachronism;  why  could  it  not 
have  a  grand  euthanasia  in  Tennyson?" 

G. — "  At  any  rate  I  should  have  waited 
until  someone  of  Tennyson's  calibre  had 
turned  up.  I  felt  a  special  difficulty  in 
recommending  a  successor  to  Tennyson, 
because  by  far  the  greatest  of  our  English 
poets  is  practically  out  of  the  running." 

"'  Pitt  is  to  Addington 

As  London  to  Paddington." 
150 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

He  went  on  to  give  reasons  for  this  latter 
opinion,  and  spoke  of  some  lines  in  which 
the  great  living  poet  to  whom  he  referred 
had  touched  on  the  death  of  the  late  Czar. 
I  expressed  surprise  that  the  difficulty  about 
Mr.  William  Morris*  political  opinions  could 
not  be  got  over. 

G. — "  Would  you  place  him  as  a  poet 
anywhere  near  Swinburne?" 

T. — "  The  two  are  so  unlike  that  they  can 
hardly  be  compared.  But  I  confess  that  I 
admire  much  of  the  Earthly  Paradise  and  of 
The  Life  and  Death  of  Jason. 

I  expressed  surprise  at  the  extremely  high 
praise  which  Matthew  Arnold  and  others 
bestow  on  Wordsworth.  Mr.  Gladstone  re- 
plied that  he  was  also  surprised ;  but  he 
added  that  he  had  heard  that  the  late  Sir 
Francis  Doyle,  whose  critical  faculty  he 
valued  highly,  took  the  same  view  as  Mat- 
thew Arnold.  Neither  Mr.  Gladstone  nor 
I  could  understand  why  Matthew  Arnold 
ranked  Wordsworth  so  much  above  Tenny- 
son. I  quoted  single  lines  of  Wordsworth 
which  Matthew  Arnold  praised  highly. 
Matthew  Arnold  seemed  to  regard  the  line — 

'*  Who  can  tell  us  what  she  sings  ? " 
and  the  line — 

151 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

"  And  never  lifted  up  a  single  stone," 
as  so  admirable  in  themselves  that,  even 
when  severed  from  their  context,  they  fur- 
nish a  sort  of  touchstone  which  may  help  us 
to  discriminate  between  good  poetry  and 
bad.  Would  Dr.  Arnold  have  thought  so 
highly  of  either  of  these  lines  if  they  had  been 
written  by  a  Rugby  boy? 

I  added  that  Matthew  Arnold  speaks  con- 
temptuously of  Macaulay's  Lays. 

G. — ' '  I  admire  the  Lays  very  much.  They 
will  live. 

I  called  Mr.  Gladstone's  attention  to  the 
extraordinary  passage  in  which  Matthew 
Arnold  hazards  the  opinion  that  Shelley's 
letters  may  outlive  his  poems.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone seemed  to  agree  with  me  that  criticisms 
of  this  kind  tend  to  shake  one's  faith  in  the 
critic's  judgment. 

I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  what  he  thought 
of  Macaulay  as  a  speaker.  He  gave  an  ac- 
count of  two  famous  speeches  of  Macaulay's 
and  of  the  effect  that  they  produced  ;  but  he 
admitted  that  it  was  only  on  very  rare  occa- 
sions that  Macaulay  achieved  such  results. 

I  asked  him  whether  he  thought  Bright 
the  finest  speaker  he  had  ever  heard  in  Parlia- 
ment. 

*5* 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  That  is  very  hard  to  answer.  There 
is  so  much  that  goes  to  make  a  great  orator. 
But  I  will  say  that  there  were  certain  pass- 
ages in  Bright's  speeches  which  I  never  heard 
equalled." 

T. — "  Had  not  these  been  carefully  pre- 
pared? " 

G. — "  They  were  said  to  be." 
T. — "  Was  Peel  a  great  orator?  " 
G. — "  Not  at  all  in  the  same  way." 
Mr.  Gladstone  seemed  to  think  that  Peel's 
reputation  as  a  statesman  stands  somewhat 
too   high.     He  did   not  remember  to  have 
read  Mr.  Thursfield's  Life  of  Peel.     But  he 
had  spoken  to  the  eminent  author  about  Sir 
Robert  Peel ;  and  he  expected  that  the  book 
would  exactly  represent  his  own  views. 

G. — "  The  great  virtue  of  Peel  was  that 
he  had  such  an  enormous  conscience.  Con- 
science, they  say,  is  a  very  expensive  thing 
to  keep.      Peel  certainly  kept  one." 

T. — "  But  you  will  remember  that  Peel 
was  compared  (I  think  by  Disraeli)  to  the 
Turkish  admiral  who  treacherously  steered 
the  fleet  under  his  command  into  the  enemy's 
harbour;  and,  exaggeration  apart,  I  suppose 
you  would  say  that,  on  the  two  great  occa- 
sions  of   Catholic    Emancipation    and  Free 

153 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Trade,  other  men  laboured  and  he  entered 
into  their  labours." 

G. — "  Yes.  But,  when  he  had  finally  made 
up  his  mind,  he  stuck  to  it  unflinchingly. 
His  great  failure  was  in  regard  to  Ireland. 
He  thought  that  he  could  cobble  up  the  Irish 
difficulty  by  endowing  Maynooth  and  estab- 
lishing what  the  strong  Protestants  call  god- 
less Colleges.  In  one  instance  he,  from  most 
conscientious  motives,  did  the  Irish  a  great 
injury.  He  passed  the  Encumbered  Estates 
Act.  It  is  fair  to  say  that,  when  the  cottiers 
improved  their  land,  the  old  landlords  did 
not  tread  on  the  heels  of  the  improvement. 
But,  after  the  passing  of  Peel's  Act,  when 
any  land  came  to  be  sold,  the  buyer  naturally 
wanted  to  get  the  full  value  of  his  money; 
and  so  the  poor  tenant  lost  all  the  value  of 
his  improvement.  One  thing  may  amuse 
you.  In  the  new  National  Biography  only 
fifteen  pages  are  given  to  Peel,  and  twenty 
pages  to  Parnell." 

T. — "  You  once  told  me  that  Parnell's 
speeches  reminded  you  of  Lord  Palmerston's 
in  their  way  of  expressing  exactly  what  the 
speaker  meant  to  say.  But  of  course  you 
would  call  Parnell  a  pigmy  compared  with 
Lord  Palmerston." 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  I  should  not  call  him  anything  of 
the  sort.  He  had  statesmanlike  qualities; 
and  I  found  him  a  wonderfully  good  man  to 
do  business  with,  until  I  discovered  him 
to  be  a  consummate  liar." 

T. — "  What  sort  of  a  place,  then,  would 
you  assign  to  Lord  Palmerston?" 

G. — ' '  Taking  our  former  standard  of  meas- 
urement, I  should  say  that,  if  Peel  has  fifteen 
pages  of  the  Biography,  Palmerston  should 
have  ten  or  twelve.  Palmerston  had  two 
admirable  qualities.  He  had  an  intense  love 
of  Constitutional  freedom  everywhere;  and 
he  had  a  profound  hatred  of  negro  slavery. 
One  signal  service  he  rendered  to  Ireland. 
He  appointed  the  '  Devon  Commission,' 
which  collected  facts  proving  the  Irish  to 
be  the  most  oppressed,  the  most  miserable 
and  the  most  patient  population  in  Europe. 
But  he  did  not  make  any  practical  use  of 
this  knowledge.  I  should  not  ascribe  to  him 
the  overpowering  conscientiousness  which  I 
ascribe  to  Peel." 

I  quoted  as  accurately  as  I  could  the  pass- 
age in  Bacon's  essay  "  Of  Goodness,  and 
Goodness  of  Nature,"  in  which,  after  describ- 
ing certain  not  very  benevolent  or  trust- 
worthy characters,  he  says  of  them:  "  Such 

155 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

dispositions  are  the  very  errors  of  human 
nature ;  and  yet  they  are  the  fittest  timber 
to  make  great  politicks  of;  like  to  knee  tim- 
ber, that  is  good  for  ships  that  are  ordained 
to  be  tossed,  but  not  for  building  houses  that 
shall  stand  firm."  I  suggested  that  in  this 
passage  absolute  honesty  is  recommended  to 
ordinary  men,  but  that  a  certain  amount  of 
dissimulation  is  conceded  to  statesmen. 
Does  not  this  recall  Tacitus's  remark  on 
Galba's  refusal  to  temporise?  To  that  high 
standard,  he  tells  us,  jam  non  pares  sumns. 

G. — "  It  is  only  with  great  hesitation  that 
I  should  differ  from  anything  that  Bacon 
says  in  those  Essays  of  his.  But  surely  knee 
timber  is  not  a  thing  which  bends  as  an  un- 
scrupulous man's  conscience  bends.  It  is 
chosen  because  it  is  in  the  shape  best  suited 
to  ships." 

T. — "  I  suppose  that  Bacon  meant  that  it 
is  naturally  crooked,  just  as  some  men's 
consciences  are  naturally  crooked." 

G. — "  Well,  I  should  not  say  this  of 
Palmerston's  conscience.  An  illustration 
will  best  show  the  fault  that  I  find  with 
him.  When  the  troubles  were  arising  be- 
tween Prussia  and  Denmark,  Palmerston 
said  that,  if  the  Danes  were  attacked,  they 

156 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

would  not  stand  alone.  They  were  attacked ; 
they  did  stand  alone ;  and  Palmerston  did 
not  resign." 

T. — "  Of  course,  when  he  said  that,  he 
thought  that  the  cause  of  Denmark  would 
be  warmly  supported  by  England." 

G. — "  He  had  no  business  to  think.  There 
was  an  Eaton  master,  named  Heath,  who 
had  an  odd  sort  of  dry  humour.  When  he 
was  going  to  send  a  boy  up  to  be  flogged, 
and  the  boy  began  to  make  excuses,  saying 
'  I  thought  so-and-so,'  he  used  to  say,  '  No 
boy  has  any  business  to  think  until  he  gets 
to  the  Upper  Division. '  And  so  Palmerston 
had  no  business  to  think  until  he  had  learnt 
what  the  country  was  prepared  to  do."  ! 

Something  was  said  about  flogging  in 
public  schools;  and  I  told  the  story  of  how 
Dr.  Vaughan  was  once  flogging  a  young 
nobleman,  who,  not  being  used  to  such 
rough  treatment,  presently  got  up  and  asked 
the  headmaster  how  many  more  cuts  he  was 
going  to  give.     Vaughan  replied  in  his  most 

1  This  may  recall  a  passage  in  The  Rivals  : — 

Lydia. — "  Madam,  I  thought  you  once  " — 

Mrs.    Malaprop.— "  You    thought,    Miss!      I    don't 

know  any  business  you  have  to  think  at  all — thought  does 

not  become  a  young  woman." 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

mellifluous  voice,  "  That  is  for  me  to  decide, 
Lord  F. ;  kneel  down  again."  A  lady  told 
the  story  of  an  assistant  master  sending 
Keate  a  list  of  boys  to  be  confirmed.  Keate 
thought  they  were  to  be  flogged,  and  flogged 
them  accordingly.  I  called  Mr.  Gladstone's 
attention  to  the  phrase  he  had  used,  "  dry- 
humour,"  remarking  that,  according  to  the 
etymology,  it  would  signify  dry -wetness. 
Wishing  to  draw  him  out  about  wit  and 
humour,  I  mentioned  that  Matthew  Arnold 
says  that  Moliere  ought  to  be  ranked  with 
Shakespeare,  Milton,  and  Goethe. 

G. — "  Does  he  indeed  say  that?  I  should 
not  call  Moliere  a  poet." 

T. — "  I  once  expressed  some  surprise  to 

our  friend  J ■  M at  so   high   a   place 

being  assigned  to  Moliere;  but  he  agreed 
with  Matthew  Arnold.  He  said  that  Mo- 
liere had  written  two  plays,  which  fell  only 
just  below  the  greatest  dramas  of  the  world; 
and  he  also  spoke  very  highly  of  L'Avare, 
and  also  praised  the  Bourgois  Gentilhomme." 

G. — "  Well,  I  suppose  that  the  Misan- 
thrope and  the  Tartuffe  were  the  two  great 
plays  that  he  meant.  I  have  been  reading 
them  lately,  and  I  should  call  them  both 
third-class  plays.     I  once   asked    Dollinger 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

whom  he  considered  the  two  wittiest  men 
that  ever  lived.  He  at  once  answered, 
'Aristophanes  and  Shakespeare.'  This  is 
just  what  I  should  have  said  myself.  I  am 
very  old  now,  and  cannot  hope  to  learn 
much  more.  But  I  do  want  to  learn  what 
the  difference  is,  which  people  are  so  fond 
of  talking  about,  between  wit  and  humour." 

I  quoted  Jowett's  saying  {Memoir,  p.  32) 
that  wit  consists  in  a  number  of  points,  while 
humour  is  continuous. 

G. — "  I  don't  see  how  he  would  have 
applied  that  to  individual  cases.  One  of 
the  best  things  ever  said  was  the  remark 
of  Falstaff,  who,  being  called  on  to  pay  for 
the  satin  which  he  had  purchased,  said  that 
Bardolph  should  be  his  surety.1  Was  this 
wit  or  humour?  " 

T. — "  At  any  rate,  there  can  be  no  doubt 
that  most  of  Sidney  Smith's  good  sayings 
were  witty  rather  than  humorous.  Take 
the  familiar  example  of  the  young  lady  who 
said  to  him,  '  We  want  to  bring  this  pea  to 
perfection  ' ;    Sidney  Smith,   giving  her   his 

1  The  reference  is  to  Henry  IV.,  Part  II.  Act  i.  Scene  2.. 
But  I  failed  to  detect  in  this  scene  any  quotable  passage 
which  would  not  disappoint  my  readers,  after  the  praise 
bestowed  by  Mr.  Gladstone. 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

arm,  replied,  '  Let  me  bring  perfection  to 
the  pea.'  " 

G. — ' '  Yes,  that  was  wit.  By  the  way,  I  am 
told  that  one  of  the  Pollocks  was  the  author 
of  a  saying  which  I  had  always  supposed  to 
be  by  Sidney  Smith — the  saying  addressed 
to  the  child  who  tried  to  please  the  tortoise 
by  stroking  its  shell:  'You  might  as  well 
stroke  the  Dome  of  St.  Paul's  to  please  the 
Dean  and  Chapter. '  The  little  gamins  some- 
times say  very  good  things.  Someone  who 
applied  to  us  for  a  clerkship  told  us  that  he 
had  already  applied  to  become  a  clerk  to  an 
undertaker  in  Fetter  Lane — not  a  very  lively 
occupation.  But  what  can  have  been  his 
feelings  when,  on  going  to  the  office,  he 
found  two  hundred  other  applicants?  But 
the  unkindest  cut  of  all  was  when  he  saw 
two  small  gamins  pointing  at  them,  and  say- 
ing, '  Look  at  all  those  clerks ;  they  are  go- 
ing there  to  be  measured  for  their  coffins.' 
I  will  give  you  another  instance.  A  very 
tall  friend  of  mine  was  staring  up  at  the 
Obelisk.  He  heard  one  of  the  gamins  say, 
'  If  you  were  to  lie  on  the  ground,  you  would 
be  half-way  home.'  ' 

T. — "  I  know  a  case  of  a  very  tall,  gaunt, 
and  plain  English  lady  in  Spain,  to  whom  a 

1 60 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

rude  little  Spanish   boy  said,  '  You  are  as 
long  and  as  ugly  as  a  lawsuit.'  " 

May  not,  I  am  tempted  to  ask,  the  differ- 
ence between  wit  and  humour  be  illustrated 
by  Sidney  Smith's  definition  of  wit?  "  The 
feeling  of  wit,"  he  says,  "  is  occasioned  by 
those  relations  of  ideas  which  excite  surprise, 
and  surprise  alone."  Now,  it  is  manifest 
that  the  limitation  contained  in  this  last 
clause  would  not  be  required  in  a  definition 
of  humour.  Nay,  it  represents  the  very 
opposite  of  what  is  required  in  such  a  defini- 
tion. The  emotional  quality  which  (accord- 
ing to  Sidney  Smith)  wit  lacks,  all  humour 
must  possess.  Why,  then,  should  not  hu- 
mour be  defined  as  Wit  touched  by  emotion  ? 

The  conversation  drifted  to  English  litera- 
ture. 

T. — "  I  find  it  hard  to  think  that  Carlyle's 
extreme  popularity  will  last  very  long." 

G.  (smiling) — "  I  find  it  hard  to  be  impar- 
tial; for  Carlyle  did  not  at  all  like  me." 

T. — "  Also,  he  did  not  at  all  like  Disraeli, 
at  least  before  Disraeli  offered  him  a  knight- 
hood." 

G. — "  Yes,  I  know  that  he  did   not  like 
Dizzy;  but,  with  regard  to  myself,  the  hard 
thing  was  that  I  had  a  long,  interesting,  and, 
ii  161 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

as  it  seemed  to  me,  amicable  conversation 
with  him  at  Mentone;  and  then,  to  my 
amazement,  I  found,  when  Froude's  life  of 
him  came  out,  this  very  conversation  is  men- 
tioned in  it,  and  I  am  described  as  utterly 
contemptible  and  impermeable  to  new  ideas. 
I  don't  look  upon  Carlyle  as  a  philosopher. 
Tennyson  once  said  to  me  a  very  good  thing 
about  him.  He  said,  '  Carlyle  is  a  poet,  to 
whom  Nature  has  denied  the  faculty  of 
verse. 

T. — "  This  reminds  me  of  what  Tennyson 
said  to  a  friend  of  mine  about  Walt  Whit- 
man. He  said,  '  The  first  requisite  of  a 
singer  is  that  he  should  sing.  Walt  Whit- 
man has  not  this  requisite;  let  him  speak  in 
prose.'  " 

G. — "  Does  not  this  seem  rather  incon- 
sistent with  what  he  said  to  me? " 

T. — "  I  think  not.  He  seemingly  regarded 
both  Carlyle  and  Walt  Whitman  as  poetical 
torsos,  as  poets  without  the  faculty  of  verse. 
This  being  so,  he  blamed  Walt  Whitman  for 
attempting  verse.  He  would  doubtless  have 
commended  Carlyle  for  never  (or  hardly 
ever)  attempting  it." 

G. — "  Are  you  a  great  admirer  of  Car- 
lyle?" 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

T. — "  At  Harrow  I  became  a  great  ad- 
mirer of  Macaulay's  directness  and  plainness, 
and  I  often  wish  that  Carlyle  would  not  write 
Carlylese." 

G.  {smiling) — "  I  suppose  that  it  is  hardly 
possible  for  the  same  man  to  be  a  great  ad- 
mirer both  of  Macaulay  and  of  Carlyle." 

The  conversation  passed  on  to  politics. 

T. — "  I  don't  want  to  embark  on  too  wide 
a  subject;  but  I  am  tempted  to  ask  in  the 
words  of  Jehoram,  '  Is  it  peace,  Jehu?'  In 
other  words,  are  you  at  all  afraid  of  war, 
especially  with  Germany?" 

G.—"  Not  in  the  least." 

T. — "  Are  you  not  afraid  of  our  small 
army  being  attacked  by  their  huge  army?'1 

G. — "  How  are  they  to  cross  the  Chan- 
nel without  ships?  They  would  get  very 
wet !  ' ' 

Mrs.  T.—"  Might  they  not  use  a  great 
number  of  the  German  Lloyd  steamers  to 
transport  their  army? " 

G. — "  We  should  have  twenty  ships  to 
their  one." 

T. — "  I  suppose  that  some  English  com- 
panies might  be  induced  to  supply  them 
with  ships  and  arms." 

G.— "  Oh    yes.      For    filthy    lucre    they 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

would  supply  arms  to  the  rebel  angels  against 
Heaven." 

T. — "  This  reminds  me  of  the  case  of  the 
A  labama. 

G. — "  The  case  of  the  Alabama  is  a  very 
difficult  and  complicated  one." 

T. — "  I  suppose  that  you  consider  the 
award  was  extravagantly  high." 

G. — "It  was  enormous." 

He  went  on  to  mention,  if  I  understood 
him  rightly,  a  case  in  which  we  were  mulcted 
of  a  large  sum  through  the  act  of  one  of  our 
colonies. 

T. — "  What  a  strong  view  Froude  takes 
in  Oceana  about  the  importance  of  colonies 
to  the  Mother  Country!  " 

G. — "  What  reason  does  he  give?  " 

T. — "  I  think  he  says  that  in  England  the 
race  tends  to  become  enfeebled  through  be- 
ing crowded  into  large  towns.  He  wishes 
more  and  more  emigrants  to  be  sent  off  to 
Australia  and  the  other  colonies,  so  that 
they  or  their  posterity  may  return  with  re- 
cruited vigour  to  do  service  in  England." 

G. — "  Does  he  propose  bringing  another 
Australia  into  being?  The  conditions  which 
he  seems  to  have  desired  exist  already,  and 
I   cannot   see  how  he  expected  to  improve 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

them.  No,  I  have  always  maintained  that 
we  are  bound  by  ties  of  honour  and  con- 
science to  our  colonies.  But  the  idea  that 
the  colonies  add  to  the  strength  of  the 
mother  country  appears  to  me  to  be  as 
dark  a  superstition  as  any  that  existed  in 
the  Middle  Ages." 

It  may  not  be  amiss  to  compare  this  with 
a  remark  made  in  conversation  many  years 
ago  by  the  late  editor  of  the  Times  (Mr. 
Chenery)  in  regard  to  the  colonies:  "  They 
are  not  feeders,  but  suckers." 

In  justice  to  Froude  I  feel  bound  to  say 
that  I  understand  his  contention  to  be  that 
the  colonies  must  be  made  to  feel  that  the 
mother  country  really  regards  them  as  her 
children,  and  that  she  opens  her  doors  to 
them,  and  is  willing  (in  Academic  phrase) 
to  grant  to  those  who  distinguish  themselves 
an  ad  inndem  degree  on  her  own  soil ;  and 
that,  this  being  clearly  understood,  the  tie 
between  mother  country  and  colonies  will 
gradually  become  closer,  especially  as  quick- 
ened locomotion  cuts  short  distance. 

Later  on,  when  Mr.  Gladstone  and  I  were 
left  alone,  he  called  my  attention  to  the 
question  raised  in  my  Memoir  of  Jowett  as 
to  whether  Socrates  had  much  sense  of  sin. 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

T. — "  Do  you  remember  the  passage  at 
the  end  of  the  Republic  where  Socrates  speaks 
of  the  tremendous  and  seemingly  everlasting 
punishments  which  await  tyrants  in  the  other 
world?  Does  this  not  show  that  he  had  a 
strong  sense  of  the  heinousness  of  their 
sins? 

G. — "  I  do  not  doubt  that  Socrates  felt 
strongly  the  obligation  of  his  moral  code. 
But  he  regarded  vice  and  crimes  as  offences 
against  the  social  order,  rather  than  as 
infractions  of  a  law  given  by  God.  Of  sin, 
in  the  latter  sense,  I  think  that  there  is  no 
trace  in  Plato;  and  I  am  confident  that  there 
is  none  in  Aristotle.  Even  the  moral  code 
of  the  Greeks  in  the  time  of  Socrates  was  so 
elastic  as  to  press  very  gently  on  the  vice 
mentioned  in  the  Symposium." 

T. — "  It  is  certainly  strange  that  there  is 
nothing  about  that  vice  in  Homer." 

G. — "Yes;  Homer  had  some  remains  of 
the  sense  of  sin  in  his  araodaXu).  But 
among  the  Greeks  this  sense  of  sin  almost 
died  out  with  Homer." 

I  recalled  the  declaration  of  ^Eschylus, 
which  gathers  solemnity  from  its  very  vague- 
ness, and  to  which  no  translation  can  do 
justice — the  half  indignant,  half  incredulous 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

declaration  or  admission  that  "  someone 
denied  "  that  the  gods  take  any  heed  of 
mortals;  and  I  asked  whether  ^schylus 
had  not  a  deep  sense,  if  not  of  sin,  at  any 
rate  of  the  appalling  seriousness  of  human 
life. 

G. — "  Yes,  there  are  some  remains  of  the 
sense  of  sin  in  ^Eschylus.  In  Homer  the 
Eumenides  are  passionless  beings  dispensing 
impartial  justice.  In  later  times  they  are 
Furies  inflamed  by  the  worst  passions. 
Take,  for  example,  the  phrase:  Atra  flagel- 
lum  TisipJione quatit  exultans.  In  ^Eschylus 
you  have  both  conceptions  together." 

I  could  not  agree  with  him  in  thinking 
the  Homerica  gods  by  any  means  models 
of  virtue.  An  example  is  furnished  by  the 
fight  of  the  gods,  and  the  attitude  taken  by 
the  Supreme  Father — 

i  "  Jove  as  his  sport  the  dreadful  scene  descries, 
And  views  contending  gods  with  careless  eyes." 

In  this  couplet,  it  should  be  added,  Pope 
has  hardly  done  justice  to  the  frank  and 
refreshing  brutality  of  the  original,  where 
the  spiteful  amusement  of  the  Deity  seems 
to  be  taken  as  a  matter  of  course — 

"  lyeXadds  Se  oi  q>i\ov  Tjrop 
yrjbodvvy  otf  opdto  Of ovS  epidi  dvviovraS." 
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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

May  not,  after  all,  this  divine  or  diabolic 
mirth  have  been  flavoured  with  a  Chauvin- 
istic ingredient — with  the  sweet  but  unwhole- 
some condiment  of  Dividantur  et  imperabo  ? 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  on  to  say  that,  among 
the  Hebrews  in  the  time  of  Christ,  the  belief 
in  the  heinousness  of  sin  had  struck  as  deep 
root  as  the  belief  in  the  Unity  of  God; 
Christ  himself  did  not  insist  on  it,  because 
He  knew  that  His  hearers  did  not  dispute  it. 

On  the  general  question  I  offered  this 
comment:  "  I  quite  feel  that  the  word  '  sin,' 
in  the  theological  sense,  implies  the  infrac- 
tion of  a  divine  law.  But  is  not  this  word, 
like  some  other  theological  terms  (such  as 
inspiration),  gradually  modifying  its  mean- 
ing? The  distinction  that  we  now  want  to 
mark,  is  the  distinction  between  persons 
who  have,  and  persons  who  have  not,  a 
strong  capacity  for  righteous  indignation. 
This  capacity  is  not  always  coincident  with 
a  sense  of  sin  (strictly  so  called).  Rabelais, 
Montaigne,  Shakespeare,  Moliere,  and  La 
Fontaine  probably  believed — they  certainly 
professed  to  believe — in  the  delivery  of  the 
law  from  Sinai.  On  the  other  hand,  Vol- 
taire, the  two  Mills,  Mr.  Francis  Newman 
and  Mr.  John  Morley  have  rejected  that  be- 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

lief;  and  yet,  strange  to  say,  the  capacity 
for  righteous  indignation  is  far  stronger  in 
them  than  in  the  earlier  writers  whom  I  have 
named ;  and  therefore,  I  should  say  that,  in 
the  modern  acceptation  of  the  term,  they 
have  a  stronger  sense  of  the  heinousness 
of  sin." 

In  connection  with  this  subject  I  called 
Mr.  Gladstone's  attention  to  a  tremendous 
passage  in  Newman's  Apologia.  "  The  Cath- 
olic Church  holds  it  better  for  the  sun  and 
moon  to  drop  from  heaven,  for  the  earth  to 
fail,  and  for  all  the  many  millions  on  it  to  die 
of  starvation  in  extremest  agony,  as  far  as 
temporal  affliction  goes,  than  that  one  soul, 
I  will  not  say,  should  be  lost,  but  should 
commit  one  venal  sin,  should  tell  one  wilful 
untruth,  or  should  steal  one  poor  farthing 
without  excuse."  Commenting  on  this  ex- 
tract, I  admitted  that  Newman's  view  might 
be  defended  by  very  plausible  arguments; 
but  I  could  not  forbear  testing  it  by  a 
homely  example.  Suppose  that  a  boy,  from 
sheer  love  of  mischief,  told  his  parents  falsely 
that  his  sister  had  been  drowned.  On  dis- 
covering the  falsehood,  the  parents  would 
doubtless  punish  the  boy  well ;  but  in  their 
hearts  they  would  rejoice.     In  other  words, 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

they  would  prefer  that  a  small  sin  should 
have  been  committed,  rather  than  that  a 
calamity  should  occur  which  would  be  as 
dust  in  the  balance  when  compared  with  the 
calamity  imagined  by  Newman.  Would  not 
even  Newman  himself  have  sympathised 
with  such  parents  in  their  sense  of  relief? 
Mr.  Gladstone  made  no  comment  on  what 
I  urged,  probably  thinking  that  the  interval 
between  our  respective  standpoints  was  too 
wide  to  be  bridged  over  by  argument.  But 
he  helped  on  the  discussion  in  another  way. 
He  gave  me  the  extract  (having  himself  most 
kindly  copied  it  out)  from  Sir  Henry  Tay- 
lor's Correspondence,  which  he  had  mentioned 
to  me  in  a  former  conversation  as  ascribing 
to  Walter  Scott  a  somewhat  blunted  capacity 
for  moral  indignation.  The  passage  occurs 
in  a  letter: — "  The  defect  which  you  men- 
tion is  attributable  to  the  defect  of  moral 
force  in  Scott's  character;  invariable  can- 
dour and  moderation  in  judging  men  is  gen- 
erally accompanied  by  such  a  defect.  Scott 
seems  to  be  always  disposed  to  approve  of 
rectitude  of  conduct,  and  to  acquiesce  in  the 
general  rules  of  morality,  but  without  any 
instinctive  or  unconquerable  aversion  from 
vice — witness     his     friendship     for    Byron. 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Power  of  the  imagination  in  conceiving  and 
depicting  strongly  a  great  variety  of  char- 
acters seems  scarcely  compatible  with  a 
strong  individuality  of  character  in  the  per- 
son possessing  that  power.  It  is  some  sim- 
ple, headstrong  qualities  which  make  a  strong 
character.  Universality  of  opinions,  and 
especially  of  sympathies,  the  one  generally 
arising  out  of  extended  knowledge,  the  other 
out  of  the  poetic  sensibilities,  are  compatible 
enough  with  the  power  of  conceiving  a  strong 
character,  but  not  with  that  of  being  it." 
Mr.  Gladstone  added  this  comment:  "  Scott 
is  one  of  my  idols;  but  I  cannot  deny  that 
there  is  force  and  depth  in  Taylor's  doctrine. 
It  is  probably  the  only  hard  thing  that  can 
be,  and  has  to  be,  said  of  Scott  with  truth. 
With  this  drawback,  he  was  a  great  bene- 
factor to  mankind." 

I  could  not  forbear  replying,  "  I  own  that 
Taylor  seems  to  me  hard  on  Scott.  I  can- 
not ascribe  moral  weakness  to  one  who  un- 
derwent such  sacrifices,  in  order  to  pay  off 
his  creditors.  As  to  his  deficiency  in  the 
power  of  moral  indignation,  is  not  this  found 
in  almost  all  persons  who  write  novels,  or 
indeed  who  contemplate  human  nature  from 
the  outside?     I  could  no  more  reproach  such 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

persons  with  taking  an  indulgent  view  of 
the  moral  infirmities  of  our  poor  human 
nature  than  I  could  blame  a  surgeon  for 
guarding  himself  against  feeling  excessive 
sympathy  for  his  patients,  and  for  taking 
what  is  called  ^.professional  view  of  even  the 
gravest  disorders."  And,  in  confirmation 
of  my  opinion,  I  called  Mr.  Gladstone's 
attention  to  a  passage  which  tends  to  show 
that  biographers  as  well  as  novelists  are  apt 
to  take  a  professional  view  of  moral  short- 
comings. The  passage  occurs  in  Plutarch's 
Lives  of  Agis  and  Cleomenes,  where,  after 
making  mention  of  the  extraordinary  moral 
lapse  which  dishonoured  the  old  age  of 
Aratus,  the  biographer  goes  on  to  say: 
"  This  that  we  have  written  of  Aratus  (who 
was  indued  with  many  noble  virtues,  and  a 
worthy  Graecian)  is  not  so  much  to  accuse 
him,  as  to  make  us  to  see  the  frayelty  and 
weakenes  of  man's  nature :  the  which,  though 
it  have  never  so  excellent  vertues,  can  not 
yet  bring  forth  such  perfit  frute,  but  that  it 
hath  ever  some  mayme  and  bleamishe." 
[North's  Plutarch.') 

Going  back  to  Homer,  Mr.  Gladstone  con- 
tended that  in  the  Iliad  the  Greeks  were  never 
charged  with  doing  anything  very  wrong. 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

T. — "  What  do  you  say  of  the  vindictive- 
ness  of  Achilles? " 

Mr.  Gladstone  went  through  the  story  of 
Achilles  from  the  beginning,  and  thought 
that  Hector  might  have  procured  the  res- 
toration of  Helen. 

G. — "  The  Greeks  were  finer  characters 
than  even  some  of  the  Hebrew  patriarchs. 
They  would  never  have  consented  to  such 
an  act  as  the  selling  of  Joseph  to  the  Egyp- 
tians. Homer  marks  his  strong  disapproval 
of  the  abduction  of  Helen  by  using  the 
word  ?7p7raffixv." 

T. — "  You  will  remember  that  Herodotus 
uses  the  same  word,  and  yet  he  thought  that 
the  Greeks  were  altogether  in  the  wrong." 

Mr.  Gladstone  seemed  surprised,  so  I 
quoted  in  the  original  the  passage,  which 
says  of  such  women  as  Helen:  "  It  is  plain 
that,  if  they  had  not  wished  it,  they  would 
not  have  been  carried  off,"  remarking  that 
this  sentence  seemed  to  me  very  quaint. 

G. — "  Yes,  of  course,  she  consented  to 
some  extent,  as  is  shown  by  the  deep  con- 
trition which  she  expresses  in  the  Odyssey. 
But  was  she  worse  that  Bathsheba?  " 

Referring  to  Butler's  Analogy,  he  said  that 
he  thought   Dr.    James   Martineau   had,    in 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

some  respect,  unconsciously  misrepresented 
Butler.  I  replied  that  Jowett  is  reported  to 
have  described  Butler's  work  asa"  tissue  of 
false  analogies  "  ;  and  I  quoted  what  he  had 
said  to  me,  namely,  that  he  recoiled  from  the 
notion  of  attributing  to  a  deliberate  judicial 
act  of  the  Deity  moral  anomalies  similar  to 
those  which  may  be  inseparable  from  the 
scheme  of  nature.  Mr.  Gladstone  could  not 
at  all  see  the  point  of  Jowett's  objection. 
He  said  that  there  was  one  "audacious'1 
passage  in  which  Butler  seemed  to  hint  that 
this  world  may  have  been  made  as  nearly 
perfect  as  the  necessity  of  things  permit- 
ted. 

Something  was  said  of  the  contemptuous 
way  in  which  most  Catholics  seemed  to 
regard  Anglo-Catholics.  Mr.  Gladstone  men- 
tioned a  Catholic  Peer  who  compared  Ritual- 
ism to  mock-turtle,  and  who  added  that  he 
preferred  the  real  turtle.  I  rejoined  that  the 
antipathy  felt  by  Romanists  for  what  they 
regard  as  the  sham  Rome  on  the  banks  of 
the  Isis  reminds  me  of  the  pathetic  melan- 
choly with  which  Claudian  contemplated  the 
new  Rome  on  the  shores  of  the  Bosphorus — 

*'  Cum  subiit  par  Roma  mihi,  divisaque  sumpsit 
/Equales  Aurora  togas." 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Mr.  Gladstone  seemed  to  like  this  com- 
parison. 

Reverting  to  the  Life  of  Manning,  Mr. 
Gladstone  expressed  surprise  that  the  Car- 
dinal had  said  that  at  Harrow  he  had  learnt 
many  things  imperfectly ;  and  Mr.  Gladstone 
added  the  amazing  statement  that,  when  he 
was  at  Eton,  it  was  possible  either  to  learn 
or  not  to  learn,  but  that,  if  you  learnt  at  all, 
you  had  to  learn  thoroughly.  He  wished 
that  a  good  life  of  Busby  could  be  written. 
It  was  of  Busby  that  the  story  was  told  that 
he  begged  to  be  excused  from  uncovering 
before  Charles  II.,  because  if  the  boys  once 
saw  him  owning  his  inferiority  to  mortal 
man,  they  would  lose  all  respect  for  him. 

G. — "  He  seems  to  have  been  the  parent 
of  our  public  schools  system ;  and,  if  that 
system  were  removed,  it  would  be  like  knock- 
ing a  front  tooth  out  of  our  English  social 
life.  I  am  glad  to  have  been  at  Eaton,  and 
especially  to  have  been  there  under  Keate. 
Keate  was  a  very  short  man,  and  was  con- 
scious of  thus  being  at  a  disadvantage  in 
inspiring  the  boys  with  awe.  He  resorted 
to  two  expedients  for  counteracting  this 
defect.  First,  he  wore  a  cassock  and  flow- 
ing robes;  and,  secondly,  he  gave  the  boys 

*75 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  impression  of  always  being    in   a  pas- 
sion. 

With  Mr.  Gladstone's  description  of  Keate 
it  may  be  worth  while  to  compare  that  given 
by  Kinglake: — 

"  Anybody  without  the  least  notion  of  drawing 
could  still  draw  a  speaking,  nay  scolding,  likeness  of 
Keate.  If  you  had  no  pencil,  you  could  draw  him 
well  enough  with  the  poker,  or  the  leg  of  a  chair,  or 
the  smoke  of  a  candle.  He  was  little  more  (if  more 
at  all)  than  five  feet  in  height,  and  was  not  very 
great  in  girth,  but  within  this  space  was  concentrated 
the  pluck  of  ten  battalions.  He  had  a  really  noble 
voice,  and  this  he  could  modulate  with  great  skill  ; 
but  he  had  also  the  power  of  quacking  like  an  angry 
duck,  and  he  almost  always  adopted  this  mode  of 
communication  in  order  to  inspire  respect.  He  was 
a  capital  scholar,  but  his  ingenuous  learning  had  not 
'softened  his  manners,'  and  had  '  permitted  them  to 
be  fierce' — tremendously  fierce.  He  had  such  a 
complete  command  over  his  temper — I  mean,  over 
his  good  temper,  that  he  scarcely  ever  allowed  it  to 
appear  :  you  could  not  put  him  out  of  humour — that 
is,  out  of  the  z'//-humour  which  he  thought  to  be  fit- 
ting for  a  head-master.  His  red  shaggy  eyebrows 
were  so  prominent,  that  lie  habitually  used  them  as 
arms  and  hands  for  the  purpose  of  pointing  out  any 
object  towards  which  he  wished  to  direct  attention  ; 
the  rest  of  his  features  were  equally  striking  in  their 
way,  and  were  all  and  all  his  own.  He  wore  a  fancy 
dress,  partly  resembling  the  costume  of  Napoleon, 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  partly  that  of  a  widow  woman.  I  could  not 
have  named  anybody  more  decidedly  differing  in 
appearance  from  the  rest  of  the  human  race." 

I  quoted  Vaughan's  sa)/ing  (reported  to 
me  on  direct  authority),  viz.  that  it  was  a 
great  advantage  to  him  as  a  schoolmaster 
that,  when  he  was  most  angry  with  a  boy, 
he  seemed  most  calm  and  self-possessed. 

G. — "  There  was  one  excellent  institution 
at  Eaton  in  my  time.  About  once  a  week 
Keate  summoned  the  boys  and  gave  them  a 
lecture  about  things  in  general.  Whenever 
they  were  displeased  they  called  out  '  OO, 
00,  00,'  without  moving  their  lips,  so  that 
Keate  could  not  tell  which  boys  were  mak- 
ing the  noise.  There  was  something  Homeric 
in  this.  When  the  Trojans  murmured,  it  is 
said  that  they  nsXadr/ffav,  whereas  Homer 
applies  a  more  respectful  word  to  the  ap- 
plause of  the  Achaeans." 

He  did  not  say  whether  the  choice  of  these 
words,  as  of  some  of  the  Homeric  epithets, 
may  not  have  been  due  to  the  exigencies  of 
metre. 

G. — "  I  am  sorry  to  learn  that  this  good 
old  Eton  custom  has  died  out." 

T. — "  Vaughan  would  certainly  not  have 
tolerated  it  at  Harrow." 
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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  What  could  he  have  done?  If  he 
had  left  off  giving  the  lectures,  it  would  have 
been  a  triumph  for  the  boys." 

T. — "  He  sometimes  deprived  the  whole 
school  of  a  half-holiday  for  less  offences  than 
that.  By  the  way,  the  compliment  you  paid 
to  Busby  startled  me.  Do  you  not  consider 
Arnold  the  great  reformer  of  modern  public 
schools?  " 

G. — "  I  doubt  whether  much  of  his  influ- 
ence reached  Eton.  I  consider  the  three 
men  who  have  recently  done  most  for  the 
religious  improvement  of  Eton  to  have  been 
Hawtrey,  Selwyn  (afterwards  the  well-known 
bishop),  and  the  Duke  of  Newcastle,  who 
founded  the  Newcastle  Scholarship." 

T. — "  How  has  the  Newcastle  Scholarship 
promoted  the  religious  improvement  of 
Eton?" 

G. — "  There  are  some  divinity  questions; 
and  the  competition  stimulates  the  candi- 
dates to  learn  the  rudiments  of  theology  in 
a  way  in  which  they  would  not  learn  them 
otherwise." 

Jan.  \%th. — Mr.  Gladstone  came  to  tea. 
G. — "  In  my  younger  days  I  was  a  great 
deal  in  Scotland,  and  looked  upon  Presby- 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

terianism  as  of  all  religions  the  least  suscept- 
ible of  change.  But  all  is  now  different. 
The  Free  Church  has  taken  up  the  traditions 
of  Presbyterianism,  and  indirectly,  if  it  has 
not  devitalised  the  Established  Kirk,  has  at 
least  deprived  it  of  some  of  its  essential 
characteristics.  The  Established  Kirk  is  in 
some  particulars  approaching  the  Church  of 
England.  I  believe  that  its  congregations 
sometimes  sing  Newman's  hymn,  "  Lead, 
kindly  Light,"  which  would  have  been 
Anathema  in  my  youth ;  and  there  is  even 
some  talk  of  their  having  bishops." 

In  illustration  of  the  state  of  opinion  that 
prevailed  in  Scotland  during  his  youth  or 
middle  life,  he  mentioned  that  in  a  Scotch 
town  (I  think  Perth)  he  once  saw  a  proces- 
sion of  choristers,  and  had  the  curiosity  to 
ask  another  Scotch  boy  what  those  boys 
were.  "  They  are  Puseyites."  "  And  what 
are  Puseyites?"  "  Next  door  to  Papists." 
I  told  the  story  that  in  my  younger  days  a 
captain  of  militia,  when  enlisting  a  recruit, 
asked  what  was  his  religion.  "  Are  you  a 
Protestant?"  "  Noa."  "Then  are  you  a 
Catholic?"  "Noa."  "  Then  what  the  devil 
are  you? — Are  you  a  heathen?"  "Noa, 
I'm  a  Puseyite. "     The  captain,  after  ascer- 

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Talks  With   Mr.  Gladstone 

taining  what  this  latter  term  meant,  decided 
that  he  should  be  sent  to  the  Catholic  service 
in  the  morning,  and  to  the  Protestant  in  the 
afternoon. 

G.  {laughing) — "  Was  that  in   England?" 

T. — "Yes;  in  Chester.  The  story  was 
told  me  at  the  time  by  one  of  the  captains." 

Mr.  Gladstone  spoke  a  good  deal  about 
Manning,  whom  he  regarded  with  very  mixed 
feelings.  He  still  had  the  remains  of  an 
ardent  personal  affection  for  the  Cardinal, 
and  an  admiration  for  his  statesmanlike 
abilities.  But  the  feelings  were  tempered 
by  a  dislike  of  his  policy,  and  (as  he  ex- 
pressed it)  of  his  "craft."  He  had  the 
strongest  aversion  to  the  Ultramontane 
movement.  I  said  that  a  Catholic  priest  of 
liberal  tendencies  rejoiced  at  the  decree  of 
the  Vatican  Council  in  1870,  on  the  ground 
seemingly  that  the  Pope — that  is,  the  Church 
— is  now  released  from  the  trammels  of  the 
past,  and  can  embark  on  a  career  of  progress. 

G. — "  That  means  that  he  prefers  personal 
to  constitutional  authority.  Would  he  have 
liked  the  government  of  the  Tudors  better 
than  the  government  of  the  Plantagenets? ,! 

Personally,  I  should  have  thought  that,  if 
compelled  to  choose  between  living  under 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  Plantagenets  on  the  one  hand,  and,  on 
the  other  hand,  living  either  at  the  beginning 
of  the  reign  of  Henry  Vll.  or  at  the  end  of 
the  reign  of  Elizabeth, — that  is,  during  those 
portions  of  the  Tudor  rdgime  which  were 
comparatively  exempt  from  religious  trou- 
bles,— most  of  us  would  have  given  a  decided 
preference  to  the  England  of  the  Tudors. 

At  the  risk  of  appearing  at  once  cynical 
and  captious,  I  will  offer  another  comment 
on  the  opinion  expressed  by  Mr.  Gladstone. 
In  our  view  of  nations,  as  of  individuals  of 
all  sorts,  it  is  not  always  by  their  periods 
of  perfect  sanity  and  soundness  that  we  are 
most  attracted.  Assuredly  the  aloe  is  not 
in  a  healthy  state  when  it  flowers,  any  more 
than  is  the  legendary  swan  when  it  sings. 
But  I  had  rather  contemplate  either  of  those 
living  things  in  its  brief  moribund  glory, 
than  during  its  protracted  spell  of  salubrious 
dulness.  And,  for  a  like  reason,  I  feel  a 
greater  interest  in  the  Roman  Republic  as 
it  was  in  the  age  of  Cicero  and  of  Lucretius, 
than  as  it  was  in  the  robuster  epoch  of  Scipio 
and  of  Fabius;  thus,  too,  mutatis  mutandis, 
even  were  I  to  grant  all  that  Mr.  Gladstone 
claimed  for  the  orderly  sway  of  the  Planta- 
genets, I  should  still  be  more  drawn  towards 

1S1 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  England  of  Shakespeare,  and  of  Raleigh, 
even  than  towards  the  England  of  Chaucer. 

I  mentioned  a  fact  related  by  the  aforesaid 
priest,  and  quoted  in  my  Memoir  of  Jowett. 
It  is  there  stated  (p.  27)  that  the  priest  wrote 
to  me: — 

"  Did  I  ever  tell  you  of  a  saying  of  Car- 
dinal Manning  on  the  hell  question?  A 
friend  suggesting  that  it  was  a  place  of  eter- 
nal suffering  eternally  untenanted,  he  an- 
swered :  '  If  one  did  not  hope  that  it  was  so, 
who  could  endure  life  ? '  According  to  this 
ingenious  theory,  impenitent  sinners  are  in- 
directly suggestive  of  Dryden's  hind;  for 
they  are  doomed  to  hell,  but  fated  not  to  burn. 
But  Mr.  Gladstone  did  not  see  his  way  either 
to  granting  them  an  escape  from  the  nether 
fires,  or  to  investing  them  with  the  insensi- 
bility of  the  salamander.  And  indeed,  when 
the  Cardinal's  merciful  special  pleading  was 
reported  to  him,  he  emphatically  replied  that 
the  report  seemed  to  him  hard  to  believe. 
He  went  on  to  speak  of  an  article  which  he 
had  written  about  Butler's  chapter  on  a 
future  life.  He  had  no  sympathy  with  the 
belief  in  natural  immortality.  That  belief, 
he  contended,  was  upheld  only  by  Plato  and 
a  few  other  philosophers  in  pagan  times.     It 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

is  nowhere  to  be  found  in  the  Bible;  and 
Origen  was,  he  believed,  the  earliest  Chris- 
tian writer  who  adopted  it ;  afterwards  it 
became  so  widespread,  if  not  universal,  that 
Servetus,  when  accused,  amongst  other 
things,  of  the  heresy  of  attacking  that  be- 
lief, openly  declared:  "  If  ever  I  said  that, 
and  not  only  said  it,  but  published  it,  and 
infected  the  whole  world,  I  would  condemn 
myself  to  death." 

G. — "  Do  you  believe  in  natural  immor- 
tality?" 

T. — "  I  certainly  wish  to  believe  it.  I  am 
naturally  disposed  in  favour  of  any  form  of 
the  belief  in  immortality  which  does  not 
involve  the  belief  in  final  retribution." 

G. — "  But  the  belief  in  natural  immor- 
tality is  not  inconsistent  with  the  belief  in 
final  retribution." 

In  strict  theory,  I  suppose  that  he  was 
right.  But,  practically,  the  scientific  objec- 
tions to  the  belief  in  natural  immortality  are 
so  formidable  that  this  belief  is  obliged  in 
self-defence  to  throw  itself,  as  it  were,  on 
our  highest  aspirations;  and  those  aspira- 
tions undoubtedly  point  to  the  elevating 
hope  that  good  will  be  the  final  goal  of  ill. 
Probably  Lord   Sherbrooke  had  some  such 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

thought  in  his  mind  when  he  said,  in  con- 
versation, "  I  utterly  refuse  to  believe  in  a 
God  who  is  worse  than  I  am."  Whereto 
he  might  have  added  as  a  corollary:  "  I 
utterly  refuse  to  believe  in  a  future  life 
which  is  worse  than  the  present  life."  Yes; 
this  is  the  universal  postulate  of  enlightened 
theology :  De  Diis  nil  nisi  bonutn. 

Wishing  to  see  what  Mr.  Gladstone  would 
make  of  the  obvious  objections  to  the  belief 
in  personal  immortality,  I  expounded  them 
as  clearly  as  I  could ;  and,  with  that  view, 
I  gave  him  the  substance  of  a  conversation 
which  had  taken  place  between  Professor 
Tyndall  and  myself,  and  which  has  so  much 
intrinsic  interest  that  I  will  venture  to  repeat 
it  here : — 

In  1886  (or  thereabouts)  I  remarked  to  Professor 
Tyndall  that  Dr.  Maudsley  somewhere  speaks  of  Mind 
as  "a  function  of  brain,  or  rather  of  organisation." 
"  Do  you  suppose,"  Tyndall  asked,  laughing,  "  that 
Maudsley  is  the  only  man  who  says  that  ?  "  He 
clearly  regarded  the  point  as  one  on  which  rational 
biologists  are  agreed.  I  then  inquired  whether  he 
did  not  find  it  hard  to  reconcile  this  opinion  with  the 
belief  in  immortality.  "If  the  brain  is  the  organ, 
and  consciousness  is  merely  the  function,  is  it  not 
contrary  to  all  analogy  to  expect  that,  in  this  instance, 
the  function  will  outlast  the  organ  ?     Is  it  not  like 

184 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

imagining  that  the  fire  will  go  on  burning  when  the 
fuel  is  exhausted  ?  Huxley  would  doubtless  agree 
with  you  on  the  general  principle  ;  and  therefore  I 
am  puzzled  to  find  him  taking  a  purely  Agnostic  at- 
titude on  the  question.  He  says,  in  effect,  that,  if 
people  tell  him  that  they  believe  in  immortality,  he 
asks  them  on  what  they  ground  their  belief;  and,  if 
they  tell  him  that  they  disbelieve  in  it,  he  asks  them 
on  what  they  ground  their  disbelief."  In  reply,  Tyn- 
dall  took  exception  to  my  illustration  drawn  from 
fire  and  fuel.  He  said  that  there  is  no  evidence  that 
consciousness,  like  heat  or  electricity,  is  a  mode  of 
motion;  but  he  spoke  of  consciousness  as  "depend- 
ent "  on  organisation. 

Tol. — "  Does  not  the  word  '  dependent '  involve 
the  whole  issue  ?  " 

Tyn.  {after  a  pause) — "  Do  you  suppose  that,  if 
Huxley  had  been  in  this  room  now,  and  you  had 
pressed  him  as  you  have  pressed  me,  he  would  seri- 
ously maintain  that  the  balance  lies  evenly  between 
the  two  opposite  hypotheses  ?  " 

He  went  on  to  make  it  quite  clear  that,  in  his 
opinion,  the  view  of  Lucretius  that 

"  animi  natura  nequit  sine  corpore  oriri 
Sola,  neque  a  nervis  et  sanguine  longiter  esse," 

is  in  all  probability  correct.  Presently  Tyndall 
added,  with  a  smile,  "  Huxley  does  sometimes  throw 
sops  to  Cerberus  " — meaning,  doubtless,  that  this 
economy  of  truth  or  economy  of  logic,  was  practised 
unconsciously.  That  such  a  comment  should  have 
been  made  by  Tyndall,  even  playfully,  on  his  ad- 
mired  and   admirable    friend,    will   surprise    some 

i85 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

readers  more,  perhaps,  than  it  surprised  me.  In  ex- 
planation of  what  he  said,  I  will  add  that,  long  be- 
fore this  conversation  had  taken  place,  and  indeed 
shortly  after  Huxley  had  published  his  essay  on 
*'  Administrative  Nihilism,"  I  called  Tyndall's  atten- 
tion to  one  or  two  of  Huxley's  unexpected  utterances, 
utterances  which,  though  certainly  not  orthodox,  had 
something  dogmatically  and  aggressively  anti-ma- 
terialistic in  their  tone.  "  His  mind,"  replied  Tyn- 
dall,  "  is  a  pendulum  which  has  been  going  into  one 
extreme,  and  now  inclines  towards  the  opposite  one." 

After  hearing  what  I  had  to  say,  Mr. 
Gladstone  expressed  strong  disagreement 
with  Tyndall.  "  Scientific  men,"  he  ex- 
claimed, "  talk  a  great  deal  too  confidently 
about  many  points ;  and  this  is  one  of  them. ' ' 
When  I  insisted  that,  according  to  Tyndall, 
mind  is  a  function  of  the  brain,  just  as  sight 
is  the  function  of  the  eye,  he  interrupted 
me:  "  I  beg  your  pardon,  sight  is  not  the 
function  of  the  eye." 

T. — "  At  anyrate,  you  will  admit  that 
the  eye  is  the  organ  of  sight." 

G. — "  Strictly  speaking,  the  eye  is  the 
carrier  of  sight."  I  confess  that  this  objec- 
tion of  his  seemed  to  me  very  hypercritical, 
all  the  more  so  because,  so  far  as  it  goes,  it 
rather  strengthens  than  weakens  the  case 
for  what  is  called  Materialism.     Let  us  grant 

1 86 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

that  the  brain  is  the  organ  of  night,  and  that 
the  eye  is  the  mere  servant  of  the  brain. 
The  decomposition  of  the  eye  extinguishes 
sight.  What  vital  function,  then,  will  be 
left  when  the  brain  is  decomposed?  To 
speak  broadly:  If  the  death  of  the  servant 
puts  a  stop  to  his  peculiar  form  of  service, 
what  form  of  service  would  be  possible  when 
the  master  and  all  the  servants  have  perished 
together?  I  was  casting  about  for  some 
safer  topic  when,  suddenly  remembering 
what  had  recently  passed  between  us  about 
wit  and  humour,  I  stumbled  on  the  highly 
original  observation  that  Charles  Lamb 
seemed  to  me  humorous  rather  than  witty! 
But  Mr.  Gladstone,  of  course,  held  the  rud- 
der; and,  after  drily  assenting  to  what  may 
be  termed  my  leading  platitude,  he  turned 
our  course  away  from  the  smooth  water  and 
steered  straight  towards  the  Day  of  Judg- 
ment. He  began  by  saying  that  the  Chris- 
tian doctrine  of  immortality  was  that  of 
union  with  God  ;  and,  by  way  of  illustration, 
he  quoted  the  text,  "  As  Thou,  Father,  art 
in  Me,  and  I  in  Thee,  that  they  also  may  be 
one  in  us."  He  then  repeated  his  convic- 
tion that  natural  immortality  is  not  to  be 
found  in   the   New   Testament.     I   pointed 

187 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

out,  on  the  lines  laid  down  by  Renan,  the 
difference  between  the  Platonic  view  of  Im- 
mortality and  the  Christian  view  of  the 
Resurrection  of  the  Body.  I  repeated  what 
Renan  says  to  the  effect  that  there  are  at 
least  two  distinct  views  of  Immortality. 
There  is  the  Greek  view,  which  divides  man 
into  two  parts,  body  and  soul,  and  which 
represents  the  soul  as  surviving  without  the 
body;  this  view  seems  to  be  entertained  by 
the  author  of  Ecclesiastes,  who  says,  "  Then 
shall  the  dust  return  to  the  earth  as  it  was: 
and  the  spirit  shall  return  unto  God,  who 
gave  it."  On  the  other  hand,  there  is  the 
distinctively  Christian  view  of  the  Resurrec- 
tion of  the  Body,  which  does  not  assign  to 
the  soul  an  independent  existence,  but  pro- 
nounces that  soul  and  body  together  shall 
be  raised  at  the  last  day.  Mr.  Gladstone 
seemed  to  agree;  but,  on  my  saying  that 
one  or  two  texts  are  not  so  easily  reconciled 
with  this  opinion,  he  asked,  "  Which  texts?  " 
I  quoted  the  words  addressed  to  the  dying 
thief;  and  added  that  this  text  certainly  im- 
plied that  the  thief's  soul  would  be  in  heaven 
while  his  body  was  decomposing  in  the 
earth. 

G. — "  Oh,  there  is  no  doubt  that  the  New 

1 88 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Testament  teaches  throughout  that  the  souls 
of  the  righteous  will  go  to  heaven  imme- 
diately after  their  death." 

T. — "  If  the  righteous  are  to  be  severed 
from  the  wicked  immediately  after  death, 
what  need  will  there  be  for  a  Day  of  Judg- 
ment? Would  it  not  be  a  strange  anomaly 
that  the  dying  thief  and  Dives  should  be 
called  upon  at  the  last  day  to  make  their 
defence  before  the  Tribunal  of  God,  if  each 
of  them,  the  former  in  Paradise  and  the  lat- 
ter in  '  torments,'  has  already  learnt  by  ex- 
perience what  the  final  sentence  on  him  is 
to  be?  Would  not  the  condemned  be  entitled 
(adapting  a  famous  line)  to  say  of  such  a 
proceeding:  '  'Tis  like  a  trial  after  execu- 
tion '? " 

I  fear  that  I  cannot  have  made  my  reason- 
ing plain  to  Mr.  Gladstone;  for  he  answered 
with  unusual  heat,  "  I  really  cannot  answer 
such  questions.  The  Almighty  never  took 
me  into  His  confidence  as  to  why  there  is  to 
be  a  Day  of  Judgment."  I  felt  it  was  im- 
possible to  press  the  matter  further,  and 
merely  said  something  to  the  effect  that  the 
expectation  of  the  immediate  end  of  the  world 
probably  deterred  the  apostles  from  laying 
much  stress  on  the  condition  of  the  dead  in 

189 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

the  interval  before  the  general  Resurrec- 
tion. 

Sir  John  Seeley  somewhere,  while  express- 
ing his  strong  wish  to  retain  the  belief  in 
immortality,  has  spoken  of  the  belief  in  the 
Day  of  Judgment  as  indicating  a  certain 
want  of  culture  in  those  who  maintain  it. 
He  was  of  course  referring  to  his  own  con- 
temporaries; and  his  remark  would  not  have 
applied  to  persons  who,  like  Mr.  Gladstone, 
were  a  quarter  of  a  century  older.  In  Mr. 
Gladstone's  mind  this  unsightly  and  withered 
branch  of  the  popular  theology  was  as  fixed 
as  in  the  mind  of  the  Evangelical  preacher 
who,  in  the  days  of  my  youth,  edified  his 
congregation  by  exclaiming:  "  In  what  form 
the  Angel  will  appear  I  know  no  more  than 
of  what  metal  his  trumpet  will  be  made!  " 
Shall  I  be  thought  disrespectful  if  I  remark 
that  this  and  one  or  two  other  sayings  of 
Mr.  Gladstone  remind  me  of  Walter  Bage- 
hot's  epigrammatic  assertion  that,  "  A  Con- 
stitutional Statesman  is  in  general  a  man  of 
common  opinions  and  uncommon  abilities — 
of  the  powers  of  a  first-rate  man  and  the 
creed  of  a  second-rate  man  "? 

Mr.  Gladstone  rose  to  depart.  I  was 
always  anxious  in  my  conversations  with  him 

190 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

to  refresh  myself  with  a  sort  of  old-world 
bath  by  hearing  his  recollections  of  his  youth 
and  middle  life;  and  I  was  disappointed  that 
in  this  instance  the  conversation  had  drifted 
from  the  past  and  present  to  the  future. 
As  I  walked  with  him  to  his  hotel,  I  ob- 
served that,  as  Miss  Gladstone  had  been  so 
long  at  Newnham,  he  had  probably  often 
considered  the  question  of  the  higher  edu- 
cation of  women  and  of  their  future  demands. 
He  replied  that  he  had  considered  the  ques- 
tion very  often ;  he  was  disposed  to  open 
the  professions  to  them,  but  to  exclude  them 
from  the  franchise ;  if  they  were  once  given 
the  franchise,  it  would  be  hard  to  prevent 
their  having  everything  else. 

T. — "  What  do  you  mean  by  '  everything 
else  '?  Do  you  mean  that  they  would  want 
to  become  Members  of  Parliament?" 

G. — "  Yes,  and  to  become  judges  and 
generals." 

T. — "  But  surely,  if  they  want  to  become 
generals,  they  would  be  told  that  they  were, 
owing  to  physical  causes,  unfit  for  the  army. 

G. — "  Oh,  but  they  would  answer  that,  if 
they  were  physically  unfit  to  become  gen- 
erals, they  never  would  or  could  become 
generals." 

191 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

T. — "Yes;  this  is  the  kind  of  argument 
which  Mill  illustrated  by  saying  that  no  law 
was  ever  passed  forbidding  men  with  weak 
arms  to  become  blacksmiths." 

G. — "  One  concession,  however,  I  would 
make  to  them.  It  seems  to  me  perfectly 
scandalous  that,  out  of  the  vast  incomes  of 
our  two  Universities,  not  a  sixpence  has  ever 
been  given  to  a  woman." 

T. — "  Would  you  have  women  made  pro- 
fessors? " 

G. — "  There  might  be  difficulties  about 
that.  But  they  might  be  helpful  in  other 
ways.  As  compared  with  men,  they  are 
handicapped  in  the  race  of  life;  and  they 
certainly  ought  to  have  their  share  of  the 
University  revenues.  I  remember  urging 
this  on  Lightfoot  at  the  time  of  the  Uni- 
versity Commission ;  but  he  thought  that  it 
would  be  too  fundamental  a  change." 

January  %th,  1896. — Dined  with  Mr. 
Armitstead  and  the  Gladstones;  Lord  and 
Lady  Cranbourne  were  present.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone, speaking  of  the  learned  divine  whose 
reminiscences  of  him  I  have  quoted  above, 
regretted  that  so  excellent  a  man  was  obliged 
by  weak  health  to  live  abroad. 

192 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  He  would  probably  have  risen  to 
the  highest  distinction  in  the  Church." 

T. — "  Surely  very  many  able  clergymen, 
for  various  reasons,  do  not  gain  ecclesiastical 
preferments." 

G. — "  No  doubt  that  used  to  be  the  case. 
At  the  time  of  the  Newmanite  movement, 
every  clergyman  who  took  part  in  that  move- 
ment was  rigorously  placed  under  a  bann. 
But  things  are  changed  now." 

I  spoke  of  Jowett  as  a  very  distinguished 
clergyman,  who  never  received  ecclesiastical 
preferment;  and  the  conversation  drifted  to 
Jowett's  Sermon  on  Discourse.  I  said  that 
on  that  occasion  he  chose  a  very  odd  text. 
A  sermon  is  generally  supposed  to  bear  some 
relation  to  the  text  in  its  original  sense;  and 
in  this  instance  the  selection  of  "  Man  shall 
not  live  by  bread  alone,  but  by  every  word 
that proceedeth  out  of  the  mouth,"  l  suggests 
the  notion  that  the  dialogue  with  the  Arch- 
fiend in  the  wilderness  had  turned  on  the 
best  mode  of  being  agreeable  in  society. 
Mr.  Gladstone  smiled,  and  acknowledged 
that  sometimes  Jowett's  texts  were  cer- 
tainly peculiar;  but,  on  the  whole,  the  ser- 
mons seemed  to  him  to  be  very  interesting 

1  The  text  is  thus  truncated  by  Jowett. 
13  193 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

and  striking.  He  then  came  up  to  me  with 
his  edition  of  Butler's  Analogy,  and  said, 
"  This  is  my  Butler."  As  I  have  to  wear 
very  peculiar  spectacles,  the  field  of  my 
vision  is  limited ;  and  Mr.  Gladstone  hap- 
pened to  hold  the  book  outside  that  field. 
I  therefore  did  not  see  the  book;  but, 
chancing  to  see  a  gentleman  in  evening 
dress  advancing  towards  me,  I  imagined 
that  this  must  be  the  butler,  who  was  in  all 
probability  bringing  me  my  handkerchief, 
which  I  might  have  dropped  on  the  staircase. 
This  trivial  incident  is  worth  recording,  as 
the  mistake  would  scarcely  have  been  made 
but  for  that  peculiar  inelastic  and,  so  to  say, 
stereotyped  earnestness  of  manner  which 
made  it  hard  sometimes  to  tell  whether  Mr. 
Gladstone  was  speaking  on  a  grave  or  on 
a  light  topic. 

At  dinner  the  conversation  began  with  the 
rainfall  at  Biarritz ;  and  I  took  the  oppor- 
tunity of  raising  the  question  whether  a  dry 
or  a  damp  climate  is  the  more  favourable  to 
longevity. 

G. — "  There  are  some  very  curious  facts 
about  longevity.  I  will  mention  one.  The 
proportion  of  centenarians  in  Scotland  is 
about  double  of  what  it  is  in  England,  and 

194 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

in  Ireland  it  is  about  double  of  what  it  is  in 
Scotland." 

I  asked  whether  that  might  not  be  due  to 
the  exaggeration  of  very  old  people.  Were 
the  registers  as  carefully  kept  in  Ireland  and 
Scotland  as  in  England? 

G. — "  I  am  speaking  of  the  most  recent 
returns." 

I  asked  whether  the  registers  were  kept 
with  equal  care  in  all  three  countries  a  hun- 
dred years  ago,  and  reminded  Mr.  Gladstone 
of  the  difficulty  which  arises  when  one  child 
dies  and  another,  born  some  years  later,  is 
called  by  the  same  name. 

G.— "  I  know  that;  but  I  think  that  this 
cause  of  error  would  exist  equally  in  the 
three  countries.  The  result  seems  to  me 
very  remarkable  indeed."  He  went  on  to 
talk  about  Sir  G.  Cornwall  Lewis,  for  whose 
judgment,  except  on  matters  of  "  finance," 
he  had  the  highest  respect ;  but  in  his  scepti- 
cism about  centenarianism  he  was,  in  Mr. 
Gladstone's  opinion,  simply  wrong.  I  ad- 
verted to  my  conversation  with  Sir  G.  Corn- 
wall Lewis  (reported  in  Safe  Studies,  pp. 
37-43),  which  occurred  only  a  few  weeks  be- 
fore his  death,  and  in  which  he  admitted  that  a 
few  cases  of  centenarianism  were  established. 

*95 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

G. — "  It  appears,  then,  that,  like  the 
vaccinators,  he  changed  his  ground." 

T. — "  How  have  vaccinators  changed  their 
ground?  " 

G. — "  They  began  by  saying  that,  if  you 
are  once  vaccinated,  you  will  never  have 
small-pox;  then  they  said  that  you  must  be 
vaccinated  twice;  and  then  that  you  must 
be  vaccinated  once  in  seven  years!  " 

T. — "  But  I  suppose  that  nearly  all  doc- 
tors are  in  favour  of  vaccination." 

G. — "  Yes;  ninety-nine  out  of  every  hun- 
dred. But  at  one  time  medical  opinion  was 
in  favour  of  inoculation.  Indeed,  they  were 
very  nearly  making  inoculation  compulsory; 
whereas  now  it  is  penal."  ' 

T. — "  But  does  not  vaccination  greatly 
diminish  small-pox?" 

G. — "Yes;  but  it  has  greatly  increased 
the  tendency  to  zymotic  diseases.  When- 
ever there  is  a  zymotic  tendency  in  the  child 
from  which  the  lymph  is  taken,  that  disease 
is  transmitted   to  the  vaccinated  child.     I 

'There  is  a  passage  in  She  Stoops  to  Conquer  which, 
even  when  allowance  is  made  for  comic  exaggeration, 
shows  how  prevalent,  in  Goldsmith's  day,  was  the  belief  in 
the  beneficial  effects  of  inoculation.  "  I  vow,"  says  Mrs. 
Hardcastle,  "since  inoculation  began,  there  is  no  such 
thing  to  be  seen  as  a  plain  woman."    O  for tuna ta  nimium  ! 

196 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

should  have  been  afraid  to  tell  my  old  friend, 
Sir  Andrew  Clarke,  that  I  always  feel  a 
strong  repulsion  to  seeing  the  clear,  pure 
skin  of  a  child  made  to  break  out  into  pus- 
tules." 

T. — "  But  are  you  opposed  to  vaccina- 
tion? " 

G. — "No;  but  I  dislike  the  idea  of  its 
being  compulsory.  I  don't  like  the  notion 
of  the  State  stepping  in  between  parent  and 
child  when  it  is  not  absolutely  necessary. 
The  State  is  generally  a  very  bad  nurse." 

T. — "  If  vaccinators  have  made  a  change 
of  front,  so,  too,  have  thought-readers  and 
clairvoyants.  At  one  time  it  was  said  that, 
if  you  could  hypnotise  me,  I  might  be  able 
to  inform  you  on  topics  previously  unknown 
either  to  you  or  to  me.  It  is  now,  I  under- 
stand, merely  said  that  what  is  in  your  mind 
may  through  some  mysterious  process  be 
passed  on  to  mine." 

G. — "  I  keep  my  judgment  in  suspense 
about  thought-reading.  I  don't  let  myself 
be  entangled  in  the  belief  in  it;  but  I  am 
not  violently  opposed  to  it.  There  seems 
to  be  very  strong  evidence  for  the  stories  of 
second  sight  at  the  moment  of  death." 

He  then  gave  an  account  of  an  old  and 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

faithful  servant  of  his  own,  who  took  to 
drinking,  suddenly  decamped,  and  after- 
wards destroyed  himself.  On  the  morning 
after  his  disappearance  Mr.  Gladstone 
thought  that  he  saw  him  waiting  at  the 
breakfast-table,  and  asked  the  butler  whether 
he  was  not  there.  Mr.  Gladstone  had  no  rea- 
son to  think  that  this  occurred  at  the  mo- 
ment of  the  servant's  death;  but  he  said  it 
was  the  only  occasion  on  which  he  remem- 
bered himself  to  have  been  the  victim  of  an 
ocular  delusion.  One  or  two  instances  bear- 
ing on  the  question  of  second  sight  were  told 
by  a  lady  at  table ;  and  she  was  advised  by 
him  to  submit  the  facts  to  the  Psychical 
Society.  I  told  the  story  of  a  lady  whose 
son  died  in  Australia.  She  gave  me  the 
following  account  of  what  occurred  :  Though 
she  knew  that  he  was  at  the  Antipodes,  she 
suddenly  heard  his  voice  calling  "  Mother," 
and  mentioned  the  fact  to  her  daughter. 
They  took  a  note  of  the  time,  which  was 
5  p.m.,  and  they  afterwards  learnt  that  "  at 
that  very  moment  he  died. "  I  presently  led 
her  on  to  say  that  it  was  at  5  p.m.  that  he 
had  died.  So  she  evidently  had  not  made 
allowance  for  the  difference  between  English 
and  Australian  time.     On  my  subsequently 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

cross-questioning  the  daughter,  I  learnt  that 
the  mother's  attention  had  been  called  to 
this  difference,  but  that  she  persisted  in  tell- 
ing the  story  in  the  old  way.  Also,  to  the 
best  of  the  daughter's  recollection,  it  was  a 
mere  hallucination  of  her  mother's  that  she 
had  mentioned  the  fact  at  the  time  to  her. 
If,  under  the  influence  of  strong  emotion, 
the  wish  to  believe  could  produce  actual  be- 
lief in  this  somewhat  extreme  instance,  might 
not  the  same  cause  be  expected  to  produce 
belief  in  other  instances?  The  sorrowing 
friends  who  tell  such  tales  are  in  a  mytho- 
pceic,  and,  as  Burns  would  have  said, 
"  ghaist-alluring  "  frame  of  mind;  and  for 
obvious  reasons  it  is  generally  hard,  if  not 
impossible,  to  cross-question  them.  Mr. 
Gladstone  listened;  but  evidently  thought 
that  my  explanation  would  not  cover  all  the 
cases. 

T. — "  Suppose  that  the  watchword,  after 
being  given  to  a  sentinel,  was  discovered  by 
the  enemy,  and  that  there  was  no  possible 
way  of  accounting  for  the  discovery  except 
on  the  hypothesis  either  of  treachery  or  of 
thought-reading. 

G.  {smiling) — "  If  I  was  the  General,  I 
should  have  the  sentinel  shot."     But  he  said 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

nothing  about  the  significance  of  such  a  case 
as  a  sort  of  negative  evidence  against  thought- 
reading. 

He  reverted  to  what  was  then  his  engross- 
ing topic,  Manning  s  Life. 

G. — "  The  worst  of  nearly  all  biographers 
is  that  they  contain  hardly  anything  but 
praise." 

T. — "  Is  not  that  inevitable?  The  facts 
must  be  furnished  by  the  family  of  the  de- 
ceased, and  the  biographer  feels  bound  to 
consider  their  feelings." 

G. — "  This  may  explain  the  unfortunate 
rule,  but  only  adds  value  to  such  an  excep- 
tion as  Purcell's  Life  of  the  Cardinal.  An- 
other great  exception  is  Froude's  Life  of 
Carlyle. " 

T. — "  Some  would  say  that  Froude  went 
into  the  opposite  extreme.  Do  you  not 
think  Trevelyan's  Life  of  Macaulay  is  an 
excellent  piece  of  work?  " 

G. — "  Yes ;  but  he  had  no  great  difficulties 
to  contend  with.  By  the  way,  I  once  asked 
Dollinger,  whose  literary  discernment  im- 
pressed me  more  than  that  of  any  other 
man,  what  he  thought  of  Macaulay's  very 
peculiar  style.  I  wanted  to  know  how  that 
style   would   strike  a    foreigner.     Dollinger 

200 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

did  not  seem  to  see  the  exact  point  of  my 
question,  but  answered:  'I  should  admire 
Macaulay  more  if  I  was  quite  sure  that  he 
was  not  misleading  me.'  "  I  quoted  Charles 
Austin's  candid-friendly  remark  to  Macau- 
lay:  "  You  always  have  by  you  some  white 
and  some  black  paint ;  when  you  describe  a 
Tory,  you  put  on  the  black  paint;  and, 
when  you  describe  a  Whig,  the  white." 

G. — "I  am  sure  that  Macaulay  -was  not 
consciously  unfair;  but  he  was  not  impartial, 
like  Hallam." 

T. — "  You  will  remember  what  Macaulay 
said  about  Sir  James  Macintosh  and  Hallam. 
He  thought  that  they  were  both  eminently 
impartial;  but  that  Macintosh  was  always 
inclined  to  indulgence,  whilst  Hallam  was  a 
hanging  judge." 

G. — "  Perhaps  Hallam's  judgments  are  a 
little  severe;  but,  on  the  whole,  they  are 
wonderfully  just." 

T. — "  Did  you  ever  read  the  very  touch- 
ing words  which  he  wrote  on  the  tomb  of 
his  son  Arthur?  " 

G. — "  Did  he  not  use  an  Italian  phrase?" 

T. — "  I  was  thinking  of  the  Latin  epi- 
taph." And  I  proceeded,  as  nearly  as  I 
could  remember,  to  quote  the  words: 

20I 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

"Vale,  dulcissime, 

Vale,  dilectissime  desideratissime, 

Requiescas  in  pace, 

Pater  ac  Mater  hie  posthac  requiescamus  tecum 

Usque  ad  tubam." 

T. — "  Charles  Austin  was  surprised  at 
Hallam's  use  of  such  very  orthodox  phrase- 
ology as  that  contained  in  the  last  three 
words." 

G. — "  Charles  Austin  may  have  been  sur- 
prised but  I  am  not.  Hallam  was  a  thor- 
ough Christian." 

T. — "  You  knew  Arthur  Hallam;  did  you 
not?" 

G. — "  Very  well  indeed.  He  was  my 
greatest  friend  at  Eton.  Though  we  lived 
at  some  distance  from  each  other,  we  used 
to  breakfast  each  with  the  other  on  alternate 
weeks.  He  was  quite  the  most  rising  man 
that  I  knew.  He  was  so  much  above  and 
beyond  all  the  rest  of  us" — here  he  lifted 
up  his  arm  with  a  symbolical  gesture — "  that 
I  wondered  how  he  could  manage  to  deal 
with  us." 

I  asked  what  was  Arthur  Hallam's  age  at 
the  time  of  his  death;  and  Mr.  Gladstone 
showed  how  fresh  everything  about  him  was 
in   his  own   memory  by  stating  the  month 

202 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

when  he  was  born  and  the  month  when  he 
died. 

T. — "  I  suppose  that  you  are  a  great  ad- 
mirer of  In  Memoriam." 

G. — "Yes.  It  is  obscure  in  parts;  but, 
on  the  whole,  I  admire  it  very  much." 

Something  was  said  about  Tennyson's 
extreme  sensitiveness.  Mr.  Gladstone  ad- 
mitted that  he  was  sensitive;  but  he  added 
that,  for  all  that,  Tennyson  did  not  mind 
telling  a  story  against  himself.  The  poet 
himself  had  mentioned  that  long  ago  a  friend 
of  his,  going  to  Freshwater,  asked  a  rustic 
to  tell  him  who  were  the  chief  inhabitants. 
On  the  names  being  mentioned  of  several 
persons  not  known  to  fame,  the  stranger 
inquired  about  Mr.  Tennyson.  "  We  don't 
think  much  of  him,"  was  the  reply;  "he 
keeps  only  one  man-servant,  and  he  sleeps 
out !  '  I  capped  this  anecdote  by  mention- 
ing that  Tennyson  had  rather  enjoyed  telling 
the  following  story  against  Carlyle.  Carlyle 
had  gone  to  Cambridge  during  the  long 
vacation,  and,  finding  a  stray  undergraduate, 
asked  him  the  names  of  some  of  the  Col- 
leges. The  young  man  kindly  acted  as 
cicerone,  and  did  the  honours  of  Cambridge. 
On  parting,   Carlyle  said  to  him,   "  Thank 

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Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

you,  young  man.  Perhaps  you  may  like  to 
know  that  you  have  rendered  a  service  to 
Thomas  Carlyle  ! '  Looking  somewhat  sur- 
prised, this  Verdant  Green,  jun.,  answered 
affably,  "  Indeed,  Mr.  Thomas  Carlyle,  I 
am  very  glad  to  show  Cambridge  to  a  gentle- 
man who  has  never  seen  it  before."  One 
would  like  to  have  seen,  or  (better  still)  to 
have  thought-read,  Carlyle  when  the  simple- 
minded  undergraduate  said  that.  Mr.  Glad- 
stone remarked  that  he  thought  that  "  Gui- 
nevere "  was  the  one  of  Tennyson's  poems 
that  he  liked  best,  and  asked  which  was  my 
favourite.  After  mentioning  "  St.  Agnes' 
Eve,"  "  CEnone,"  and  the  "  Passing  of 
Arthur"  as  the  shorter  poems  which  par- 
ticularly attract  me,  I  said  that  it  seems  to 
me  very  interesting  to  contrast  the  tone  of 
the  earlier  and  of  the  later  "  Locksley 
Hall." 

G. — "The  second  'Locksley  Hall'  ap- 
pears to  me  to  make  too  gloomy  a  forecast. 
I  wrote  a  criticism  of  it  in  the  Nineteenth 
Century. 

T. — "  Are  you  not  inclined  to  take  a  thor- 
oughly sanguine  view  of  the  prospects  of  this 
very  reforming  age?" 

G. — "  Not  altogether.     The   future  is  to 

204 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

me  a  blank.  I  cannot  at  all  guess  what  is 
coming." 

T. — "  Do  you  mean  that  you  are  afraid 
that  Democracy  may  bring  everything  to  a 
dead  level,  or  that  Science  is  too  hastily 
moving  the  old  theological  landmarks?  " 

G. — "  I  am  not  so  much  afraid  either  of 
Democracy  or  of  Science  as  of  the  love 
of  money.  This  seems  to  me  to  be  a  grow- 
ing evil.  Also,  there  is  a  danger  from  the 
growth  of  that  dreadful  military  spirit." 

I  asked  him  if  he  thought  that,  as  is  often 
said,  the  perfecting  of  the  art  of  war  will 
make  wars  more  terrible,  and  therefore  more 
dreaded ;  so  that  Suis  et  ipsa  bella  viribus 
ruent.     He  seemed  uncertain. 

T. — "  Is  not  the  moral  standard  of  public 
men  higher  than  it  used  to  be?" 

G. — "  I  should  say  that  in  England  the 
change  has  been  all  the  other  way.  About 
the  Continent  I  am  not  so  sure.  {After  a 
pause.)  Since  the  retirement  of  Bismarck, 
Crispi  would  probably  rank  as  the  first  of 
continental  statesmen.  I  am  no  great  ad- 
mirer of  the  public  career  either  of  Castle- 
reagh  or  of  Metternich.  But,  judging  as  a 
moralist,  I  should  say  that  the  careers  of 
Castlereagh  and  of  Metternich  would  com- 

205 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

pare  favourably  with  those  of  Bismarck  and 
Crispi."  Being  asked  by  another  of  the 
party  what  he  thought  of  Bismarck,  he  re- 
plied, "  He  is  a  very  big  man,  but  very 
unscrupulous." 

When  Mr.  Gladstone  thus  acknowledged 
that  statesmanship  had  declined,  the  admis- 
sion seemed  to  me  suggestive  and  signifi- 
cant. Was  there  not  also  a  gradual  decline 
of  political  ability  during  the  great  century 
of  Athens?  Were  not  the  politicians  of  the 
time  of  Cleon  smaller  men  than  those  either 
of  the  time  of  Themistocles  or  of  the  time 
of  Pericles?  And  may  not  the  deterioration 
of  Athenian  statesmanship  in  the  fourth  cen- 
tury B.C.,  and  that  of  European  statesman- 
ship in  the  nineteenth  century  A.D.,  be  due 
in  part  to  the  same  cause,  namely,  the  ad- 
vance of  Democracy?  Or,  to  speak  more 
precisely,  do  we  not  commonly  find  a  good- 
lier fellowship  of  heroes  and  patriots  when 
aristocracy  and  democracy  are  militant  than 
when  either  aristocracy  or  democracy  is 
triumphant?  And,  after  all,  are  we  not  thus 
brought  face  to  face  with  one  of  the  aspects 
of  the  too  familiar  question  whether,  just  as 
each  one  of  us  must  expect  his  own  physical 
strength,   sooner  or  later,   to   dwindle   and 

206 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

decay,  even  so  the  time  must  come  to  every 
civilised  nation  when  the  advancing  tide  of 
scepticism  will  bring  destruction  on  public 
confidence,  and  indeed  on  belief  in  ideals  of 
all  sorts? 

q>QivEi  juev  idxvi  y?fi,  <pOiv£i  Sk  doojuaroi, 
6vi'/6x£i  Si  7ti6riS,  (S\o.6tcLvei  S\  ani6xia. 

But,  though  such  reflections  obtruded  them- 
selves upon  me,  I  feared  to  embark  on  deep 
and  stormy  controversies, — ne  parva  Tyr- 
rhenian per  (Equor  vela  darem, — and  I  kept 
my  musings  to  myself.  Presently  Mr.  Glad- 
stone concluded  with  the  melancholy  ob- 
servation: "  Nowhere  does  the  ideal  enter 
so  little  as  into  politics ;  nowhere  does  human 
conduct  fall  so  far  below  the  highest  ethical 
standard.  I  did  not  always  think  this;  but 
I  am  convinced  of  it  now."  It  is  note- 
worthy that  Mr.  Gladstone's  great  rival  has 
given  utterance  to  an  opinion  which,  though 
differently  expressed,  is  seemingly  of  like 
import.  "  There  is  nothing,"  says  Disraeli, 
"  in  which  the  power  of  circumstance  is 
more  evident  than  in  politics."  After  the 
ladies  left  the  room,  the  conversation  turned 
on  the  Premiership  of  Disraeli  and  on  the 
ethical   questions    involved    in    Lord    Salis- 

207 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

bury's  acceptance  of  office  under  him,  and 
in  the  late  Lord  Derby's  resignation.  From 
this  part  of  our  discourse  I  will  only  select 
one  remark.  "  I  am  convinced,"  said  Mr. 
Gladstone,  "  that  acceptance  of  office  is  apt 
to  be  less  sharply  criticised  than  resignation. 
The  motives  which  induce  a  man  to  resign 
are  more  severely  scrutinised  than  those 
which  induce  a  man  to  accept."  The  con- 
versation passed  on  to  the  art  of  oratory. 
One  of  the  party  mentioned  that  Sheridan 
is  said  to  have  put  off  preparing  the  Begum's 
speech  to  the  last,  and  then  to  have  devoted 
three  nights  to  it.  Surely  this  was  not  the 
way  to  be  in  trim  for  a  great  speech. 

G. — "  No.  Of  course  it  was  a  fault;  but 
the  fault  was  on  the  right  side.  I  have  never 
found  it  succeed  to  prepare  a  speech  long 
before.  A  speech  so  prepared  is  sure  to  lack 
freshness ;  and  freshness  is  a  great  element 
of  success." 

Mr.  Gladstone  did  not  want  the  number 
of  lawyers  in  the  House  of  Commons  to  be 
increased:  "They  are  too  fond  of  putting 
their  hands  into  the  public  purse.  The  chief 
exception  to  this  rule  was  Jessel  the  Jew ! ' 

February  Zth. — Mr.    Gladstone   liked  the 

208 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

review  of  his  Butler  in  the  Athenceum.     His 
critic  sought  to  discredit  the  chronology  of 
the  Bible.      He  himself  tried  to  defend  it  by 
speaking  of  that  of  the  Septuagint  as  prob- 
ably based  on  more  trustworthy  MSS.  than 
those   from  which   the   Hebrew  text   is   de- 
rived.     He  made  the  odd  remark  that,  not 
merely  the   Hebrews,  but   the   Chinese  and 
Hindoos,  did  not  claim  millions  of  years  for 
the   antiquity  of  man.      He   tried  to  distin- 
guish biblical  man  from  geological  man.     It 
seemed  to  him  not  merely  an  "  error,"  but 
'  nonsense,"  on  the  part  of  men  of  science 
to  affirm  that  the  Greeks  had  descended  from 
any  race  as  low  as  the  Esquimaux.     I  replied 
that,  holding  this  opinion,  he  must  presum- 
ably think  it  still  greater  nonsense  for  men 
of  science  to  affirm  that  the  old  Greeks  could 
have  been  descended  from  such  a  creature 
as  the  ourang-outang.     He  answered  vaguely 
that  he  was  not  prepared  to  deny  that  the 
Greeks    might    have    ultimately  come    from 
protoplasm.     What  he  complained  of   was 
that  men  of  science  were  so  confident  in  their 
assertions  about   the  Ascent  of   Man.      He 
passed  on  from  this  to  the  development  of 
the  colour  sense.     He  reminded  me  that  he 
had  often  contended  that  this  sense  was  very 

209 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

imperfect  in  Homer.  Homer  had  such  an 
exquisite  sense  of  the  beauty  of  form,  but 
seems  strangely  confused  when  speaking  of 
colour.  An  eminent  Jewish  Rabbi  had  told 
him  that  the  colour  sense  was  also  deficient 
amongst  the  old  Hebrews.  In  the  text  in 
Psalm  lxiii.  13,  "  Yet  shall  ye  be  as  the  wings 
of  a  dove  covered  with  silver,  and  her  feath- 
ers like  yellow  gold,"  the  concluding  words 
should  be  "green  leaflets  of  gold." 

T. — "  Macaulay,  in  the  introduction  to 
one  of  his  Lays,  remarks  that  in  our  early 
national  songs  all  the  gold  is  red.  The 
primitive  colour  blindness,  if  such  it  was, 
seems  to  have  taken  a  variety  of  forms." 

G. — "  Undoubtedly.  And  yet  my  opin- 
ions on  this  subject  drew  on  me  the  anathe- 
mas of  Darwinian  orthodoxy.  Did  you 
know  there  was  such  a  thing  as  Darwinian 
orthodoxy?  " 

T. — "  I  am  not  sure.  But,  by  way  of 
parallel,  I  may  mention  that,  many  years 
ago,  a  near  kinswoman  of  Cobden  com- 
plained to  me  of  Mill's  unorthodoxy;  and 
that,  on  my  saying  to  her  something  vague 
about  the  unorthodox  views  of  many  mod- 
ern philosophers,  she  startled  me  by  the 
interruption,  '  Oh,  I  am  not  referring  to  un- 

210 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

orthodoxy  of  that  sort.  I  mean  that  he  is 
unorthodox  in  Political  Eco?iomy. '  ' ' 

G.  {smiling) — "  That  may  illustrate  what 
I  mean.  Some  German  Evolutionists  said 
that  I  must  be  wrong,  because  some  of  the 
lower  animals  can  be  shown  to  have  a  well- 
developed  sense  of  colour;  and  what  they 
have,  man  must  have." 

T. — "  Those  Evolutionists  talk  great  non- 
sense. They  might  as  well  say  that,  as 
birds  and  butterflies  have  wings,  man  must 
have  them  too.  The  answer  would,  of 
course,  be  that  the  organs  in  question  had 
been  atrophied  by  disuse.  I  am  reminded 
of  Pope's  couplet — 

'  Why  has  not  man  a  microscopic  eye  ? 
For  this  plain  reason — man  is  not  a  fly.' 

Goethe  had  said — no  doubt,  speaking  meta- 
phorically— that  the  prolonged  use  of  either 
the  telescope  or  the  microscope  interferes 
with  the  normal  use  of  the  eye.  And  so 
likewise,  if  man  had  microscopic  vision  or 
any  faculty  utterly  alien  to  his  ordinary 
requirements,  those  ordinary  requirements 
would  tend  to  be  neglected." 

G. — "The   controversy  about  the  colour 
sense  is  still  going  on  in  Germany;  but  in 

211 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

fairness  I  must  say  that  the  majority  of  Ger- 
man writers  do  not  seem  to  agree  with  me. 
I  may  mention  one  fact.  I  went  into  a 
children's  hospital,  and,  observing  that  they 
were  dressed  in  bright  colours,  I  asked  why 
this  was,  and  was  told  that  they  preferred 
bright  colours.  I  then  asked  at  what  age 
they  began  to  show  the  preference,  and  was 
told  that  they  showed  it  before  they  were  a 
twelvemonth  old." 

The  conversation  turned  on  the  Jews,  on 
their  comparative  immunity  from  certain 
diseases,  and  on  the  contradictory  accounts 
of  the  comparative  longevity  of  Jews  and 
Gentiles.  Mr.  Gladstone  thought  highly  of 
the  Jews,  and  said  that  Sir  Andrew  Clarke, 
who  had  many  Jewish  patients,  thought  well 
of  them  morally.  Mr.  Gladstone  had  at  one 
time  gone  into  the  question  of  the  feeling 
entertained  against  pork  by  many  Orientals. 
He  consulted  the  two  most  learned  men  of 
his  acquaintance,  Dollinger  and  Lord  Acton  ; 
but  these  could  tell  him  nothing  about  it. 
At  last  he  thought  he  had  obtained  a  clue. 
Whenever  Homer  speaks  about  the  eating 
of  pigs,  it  is  always  in  connection  with  some 
Orientals.  Pigs  were  eaten  wholesale  by  the 
suitors  of  Penelope;  but  Mr.  Gladstone  con- 

212 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

sidered  that  the  Ithacans  were  of  Oriental 
or,  as  Homer  would  have  said,  of  Phoenician 
descent.  Indeed,  he  thought  it  significant 
that  Homer  had  made  his  two  Protagonists, 
Achilles  and  Odysseus,  the  former  of  Hel- 
lenic, the  latter  of  Phoenician  descent.  Two 
things  struck  Mr.  Gladstone  about  Orientals 
in  reference  to  the  pig.  Their  laws  were 
constantly  forbidding  them  to  eat  it ;  and 
they  were  constantly  breaking  those  laws. 

T. — "  Why  are  these  two  conditions  found 
more  among  early  Orientals  than  among 
early  Europeans?" 

G. — "  Eating  pork  seems  to  be  more  liable 
to  produce  trichinosis  in  the  East  than  in 
the  West.  On  the  other  hand,  Orientals 
found  a  pig  diet  very  economical  and  con- 
venient." 

T. — "  Why  did  not  Europeans  find  it 
equally  convenient?" 

G. — "  I  don't  know  whether  at  that  early 
time  the  domestic  pig  was  common  in  Eu- 
rope, though  the  wild  boar  seems  to  have 
been  known.  The  cat,  likewise,  does  not 
seem  to  have  made  its  way  into  Europe  in 
the  earliest  times.  With  regard  to  the  Jews, 
I  am  inclined  to  believe,  with  Max  Miiller, 
that  their  great  intellectual  development  did 

213 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

not  occur  until  after  they  had  been  brought 
into  contact  with  Aryan  influences,  that  is, 
not  until  after  the  writing  of  the  Septua- 
gint." 

T. — "  How,  then,  do  you  account  for  the 
genius  of  Isaiah?  " 

G. — "  You  must  remember  that  Isaiah 
wrote  under  very  peculiar  conditions.  I 
could  give  an  example,  within  my  own  ex- 
perience, of  the  wonderful  intellectual  results 
which  strong  excitement  may  bring  about. 
The  prophets  wrote  under  spiritual  excite- 
ment of  the  strongest  kind,  which  was,  in 
fact,  what  we  call  inspiration.  Many  pass- 
ages in  their  writings  and  many  of  the  Psalms 
have  the  greatest  possible  fascination  for  me, 
but  I  am  confident  that  none  of  these  old 
Hebrew  writers  could  have  produced  the 
poems  of  Homer  or  the  plays  of  ^Eschylus. 

Personally,  I  should  have  thought  that  the 
difference  between  the  two  forms  of  literary 
excellence  was  a  difference  rather  of  kind 
than  of  degree;  Homer  could  no  more  have 
written  like  Isaiah  than  Isaiah  could  have 
written  like  Homer.  I  own  I  was  much  sur- 
prised at  finding  myself  in  this  instance  (so 
to  say)  more  on  the  side  of  the  Bible  than 
Mr.  Gladstone  was.     Did   not   his  words  in 

214 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

this  instance  seem  to  indicate  a  natural,  as 
opposed  to  a  supernatural,  view  of  inspira- 
tion ?  Was  it  not  remarkable  that  the  Greeks, 
without  supernatural  aid,  could  write  better 
than  the  Hebrews  with  supernatural  aid? 

I  begged  Mr.  Gladstone  to  tell  me  the 
personal  experience  to  which  he  had  referred. 
He  replied  that  he  had  been  member  for 
Newark  at  the  time  of  the  passing  of  the 
Poor  Law  in  1834.  The  new  law  aroused 
the  strongest  antagonism.  He  heard  some 
of  the  people  say,  "  I  would  rather  clem 
[starve]  than  go  to  the  workhouse. "  One 
day  he  saw  in  the  Nottingham  newspaper  a 
tragic  account  of  the  murder  of  four  children 
by  their  father.  The  father  confessed  his 
guilt,  and  explained  how  he  had  strangled 
them  all  to  prevent  the  risk  of  their  having 
to  end  their  days  in  the  workhouse.  The 
poor  man,  in  describing  the  feelings  which 
had  led  him  to  commit  this  atrocious  act, 
was  animated  by  such  an  intensity  of  pas- 
sion, and  used  such  burning  words,  that  Mr. 
Gladstone  was  at  the  time  reminded  of  the 
description  of  Ugolino  in  Dante,  a  passage 
which  he  regarded  as  the  finest  in  the  In- 
ferno, if  not  in  the  entire  Divina  Commedia. 

I  called  his  attention  to  what  seemed  to 

2'5 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

me  the  most  conspicuous  of  all  examples  of 
the  way  in  which  an  extraordinary  stimulus 
may  be  given  to  literature  and  art.  The 
literary  glory  of  Athens  maybe  roughly  said 
to  have  been  confined  to  the  century  and  a 
half  after  the  battle  of  Marathon.  It  is  hard 
to  think  that,  during  that  period,  the  natural 
and  hereditary  qualities  of  the  Athenians 
were  much  superior  to  those  of  other  Greeks. 

G. — ' '  Can  that  be  so  ?  Surely  an  Athenian 
child  was  far  better  endowed  by  nature  than 
a  Spartan  child." 

T. — "  If  an  Athenian  child  received  from 
nature  far  higher  qualities  than  a  Spartan  or, 
let  us  say,  a  Bceotian  child,  how  are  we  to 
account  for  the  fact  that  before  the  fifth 
century  B.C.  Boeotia  had  produced  at  least 
two  poets  of  the  first  order,  while  Attica  had 
apparently  not  produced  even  one?  " 

Mr.  Gladstone  admitted  that  he  could  not 
solve  this  difficulty.  He  merely  remarked 
that,  in  his  opinion,  too  little  notice  was 
taken  of  some  of  the  earlier  Greek  poets; 
and  thus  he  presently  was  led  back  to  his 
favourite,  Homer.  He  quoted  the  familiar 
Latin  line  about  the  seven  cities  which  con- 
tended for  the  honour  of  having  been 
Homer's    birthplace:      'Smyrna,     Rhodos, 

216 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

Colophon,  Salamis,  Chios,  Argos,  Athenae," 
and  he  also  repeated  Heywood's  couplet — 

"Seven  cities  warred  for  Homer  being  dead, 
Who  living-  had  no  roofe  toshrowd  his  head." 


o 


G. — "  Homer,  like  Shakespeare,  towered 
so  completely  above  all  his  contemporaries 
that  there  is  no  understanding  how  his  age 
can  have  produced  him.  Do  those  Germans 
who  doubt  whether  there  was  a  Homer,  at 
all  remove  the  difficulty?  Take  the  most 
moderate  of  the  sceptics,  the  chorizontes. 
Does  it  help  matters  to  say  that  one  Homer 
may  have  produced  the  Iliad  and  another 
may  have  produced  the  Odyssey?  It  is  hard 
enough  to  conceive  how  early  times  can  have 
brought  forth  one  Homer;  but  it  would  be 
harder  still  to  suppose  that  they  could  have 
brought  forth  two.  It  is  as  if  some  critic, 
observing  certain  differences  between  Ham- 
let and  Macbeth,  were  to  declare  that  the 
Elizabethan  age  must  have  produced  two 
Shakespeares.  Really,  the  incredulity  of 
sceptical  critics  astonishes  me  less  than  their 
credulity." 

I  had  been  reading  Bourget's  Outre  Mer 
where,  along  with  democracy  and  science, 
the    sentiment    of    race,    of    nationality,    is 

217 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

spoken  of  as  one  of  the  great  dangers  of 
modern  civilisation.  I  remarked  to  Mr. 
Gladstone  that  this  feeling  of  nationality  is 
sometimes  thought  to  have  been  called  into 
activity  by  Louis  Napoleon,  who,  in  fact, 
raised  the  cry,  "  Italy  for  the  Italians." 
Mr.  Gladstone  shook  his  head,  and  said  that 
he  was  inclined  to  think  that  this  sentiment 
was  one  of  the  legacies  that  we  owe  to  the 
French  Revolution,  which  certainly  main- 
tained the  principle  of  "  France  for  the 
French."  He,  however,  acknowledged  that 
this  legacy  of  the  Revolution  was  a  long 
time  in  coming  into  active  operation. 

T. — "  Do  you  not  think  that  the  great 
armaments  on  the  Continent  are  the  indirect 
results  of  the  improvement  in  the  art  of 
war? 

G.  {smiling) — "  I  am  amused  at  your 
patriotic  reservation.  Why  do  you  say, 
'on  the  Continent'?  It  might  be  con- 
tended that  the  sum  of  money  spent  on  the 
army  and  navy  in  England  is,  as  compared 
with  the  population,  equal  to  that  spent  in 
foreign  countries.  In  England,  of  course, 
more  is  expended  on  the  navy;  and  the 
sums  spent  on  the  building  of  ships  must  be 
taken  into  account." 

218 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

I  then  reverted  to  my  original  point,  and 
asked  whether  the  improvements  in  the  art 
of  war  do  not  oblige  adjacent  countries  to 
keep  their  forces  in  readiness  against  each 
other.  In  former  times,  a  country  whose 
forces  were  not  so  kept  was,  no  doubt,  at  a 
disadvantage  at  the  beginning  of  a  cam- 
paign. But  in  those  times  the  disadvantage 
was  of  a  kind  which  generally  admitted  of 
being  afterwards  remedied.  In  the  wars  of 
the  present  day,  on  the  other  hand,  the 
consequences  of  the  delay  would  probably 
be  fatal.  Mr.  Gladstone  agreed  that  there 
was  probably  a  good  deal  in  this  explana- 
tion ;  but  he  added  that,  not  being  a  mili- 
tary man,  he  was  not  prepared  to  say 
whether  other  causes  may  not  have  been 
at  work.  I  remembered  that  Eourget  fears 
that  perils  maybe  in  store  for  America  from 
the  exotic  element, — that  is  to  say,  from  the 
great  and  increasing  numbers  of  German  and 
other  immigrants  who  are  not  bound  to 
America  by  any  patriotic  tie,  and  who  in 
many  instances  are  Socialists,  if  not  Anar- 
chists; did  Mr.  Gladstone  think  that  there 
is  any  risk  of  a  disruption  of  the  Union? 

G. — "  I  think  none  whatever.  At  the 
time  of  the  American  Civil  War,  the  Union 

219 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

was  subjected  to  a  tremendous  strain.  There 
was  a  threefold  antagonism ;  there  was  the 
opposition  between  the  interests  of  some 
individual  States  and  that  of  the  Federation  ; 
between  emancipation  and  slavery;  and  be- 
tween Free  Trade  and  Protection.  Over 
these  three  dangers  the  Union  triumphed ; 
and  I  can  see  no  dangers  of  equal  magnitude 
to  which  it  is  now  exposed." 

I  went  on  to  speak  of  the  Venezuelan  dis- 
pute ;  and  I  remarked  that  an  American 
politician,  at  once  very  distinguished  and 
very  friendly  to  England,  had  lately  said, 
in  a  private  letter,  that  this  dispute  seemed 
to  him  merely  a  symptom  of  a  widespread 
animosity  felt  towards  England  in  the  States. 

G. — "  I  very  much  fear  that  it  is  so.  And 
unfortunately  this  is  not  all.  We  seem  to 
be  unpopular  all  over  the  world.  The 
French  dislike  us.  The  Dutch  hate  us, 
and  naturally.  The  Germans  showed  what 
their  feelings  were  by  the  way  in  which  they 
seconded  the  monstrous  and  preposterous 
demand  of  their  Emperor.  Now,  when  an 
individual  is  disliked  by  all  his  neighbours, 
one  naturally  asks  whether  he  has  not  done 
something  to  deserve  his  unpopularity. 
And,  in  the  same  way,  I  cannot  help  won- 

220 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

dering  whether,  when  England  is  so  much 
disliked,  it  may  not  be  to  a  great  extent  her 
own  fault.  Have  you  remarked  that  Eng- 
land has  several  times,  of  late  years,  sub- 
mitted an  international  dispute  to  arbitra- 
tion, and  that  the  decision  has  generally 
been  against  her?  This  is  to  me  a  very 
unpleasant  subject  of  reflection.  The  Eng- 
lish are  a  very  strange  people.  They  have 
very  great  qualities;  but  also  they  have 
great  faults." 

He  made  a  further  comment  on  the  Ger- 
man Emperor,  which  it  is  unnecessary  to 
repeat.  Suffice  it  to  say  that  it  was  abun- 
dantly clear  that  he  would  fain  have  bestowed 
on  his  Majesty  the  Sophoclean  benedic- 
tion : — 

oo  it  at,  yevoio  itarpoi  evrvxsdtepoS 

As  he  was  dilating  on  the  unpopularity  of 
the  English,  a  thought  passed  through  my 
mind  resembling  one  which  I  have  since 
come  across  in  a  letter  of  Jowett's: — "  I  do 
not  think  Europe  has  any  deep  hatred  of  us; 
only  a  petty  jealousy  of  our  sleek,  well-fed 
appearance,  and  satisfaction  with  ourselves." 

'"O  child,    may'st    thou   be  more    fortunate  than   thy 
father,  but  in  other  respects  be  like  him  !  " 

221 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

But,  without  embarking  on  this  wide  ques- 
tion, I  asked  Mr.  Gladstone  whether  he 
meant  that  the  typical  Englishman  is  apt  to 
flaunt  the  "  Civis  Britannicus  sum  "  in  the 
presence  of  foreigners,  and  to  walk  about 
the  Continent  (in  the  manner  alleged  against 
him)  as  if,  wherever  he  was,  the  whole  place 
belonged  to  him. 

G. — "  Yes.  That  is  what  I  mean.  The 
English  are  arrogant." 

T. — "  But  is  not  the  narrow  insularity  of 
John  Bull  gradually  broadening  as  he  sees 
more  of  his  neighbours?  " 

G. — "  I  trust  that  it  is;  but  your  political 
friends  are  doing  all  that  they  can  to  arrest 
the  improvement." 

T. — "  Who  are  my  political  friends?  Liv- 
ing abroad  as  I  do,  I  try  to  keep  outside 
politics,  though  no  doubt  I  am  biassed  by 
my  Conservative  education  and  traditions." 

G.  [smiling) — "  I  remember  your  once  call- 
ing yourself  a  Whig;  and  I  know  by  experi- 
ence that  nowadays  men  who  call  themselves 
Whigs  are  nearly  always  supporters  of  the 
Salisbury  Government!  Goodbye.  God 
bless    you." 

Yes;  I  feel,  and  shall  always  feel,  the 
effects  of  my  Conservative  education.     And 

222 


Talks  With  Mr.  Gladstone 

yet,  now  that  I  was  bidding  farewell  to  the 
great  Reformer,  and  could  not  shake  off 
the  foreboding  that  he  and  I  might  never 
meet  again,  I  asked  myself  whether  impartial 
history  may  not  judge  him  worthy  of  as 
splendid  a  eulogy  as  that  which  Ovid  be- 
stowed on  a  far  less  moral  hero,  whom  at 
the  time  all  classes  delighted  to  honour: 

"Sancte  Pater  Patriae,  tibi  plebs,  tibi  curia  nomen 
Hoc  dedit,  hoc  dedimus  nos  tibi  nomen  eques." 

"  Holy  Father  of  thy  Country  !  This  title  the  Senates 
and  the  Commons,  this  title  we,  the  Knights,  have  con- 
ferred on  thee."     {Addressed  to  the  Emperor  Augusitis.) 


223 


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